Main advantages of SBL over Speakup

Alex Snow alex_snow at gmx.net
Fri Feb 12 12:14:11 EST 2010 

What I've found with Dell with regards to linux support is they only 
"support" it on server machines, but in my experience it works fine on 
their desktop/laptop lines, at least the business ones.
On Thu, Feb 11, 
2010 at 01:46:10PM -0500, Trevor Astrope wrote:
> Hi Butch,
> 
> Check out the Dell Optiplex line. I'm not sure if all Optiplex models have 
> a serial port, but there are some that do. It should be fine for XP, but 
> Dell said linux is not supported on the Optiplex line. This doesn't mean 
> that Linux won't install or work on these machines, but ymmv. John likely 
> has more experience with linux on these  machines and might be able to 
> provide more info...
> 
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010, Butch Bussen wrote:
> 
> >A bit off topic, but can you tell me which Dell business machine has a 
> >serial port? model?  I need a better machine for xp, but I need at least 
> >one and preferably two serial ports.
> >Thanks.
> >73
> >Butch Bussen
> >wa0vjr
> >open Node 3148
> >Las Vegas
> >
> >
> >On Thu, 11 Feb 2010, Trevor Astrope wrote:
> >
> >>John, what I said is there is no advantage to having speakup in the 
> >>kernel if it cannot support serial synths on modern computers and I stand 
> >>by my statement that most modern computers do not come with serial ports. 
> >>I know there is a Dell business machine that does, but these are the 
> >>exception, not the rule and are also much more expensive.
> >>
> >>Basically, my point is speakup needs to support external serial ports 
> >>and/or usb serial ports going forward or it loses any advantage it has of 
> >>being in the kernel. If software speech is the only option for the 
> >>majority of computers, than there is really no point of speakup being in 
> >>the kernel.
> >>
> >>Feel free to disagree, but I think my statements are accurate and you 
> >>will find that over time you will find fewer and fewer machines with 
> >>built-in serial ports, as usb was intended to replace rs232 serial ports 
> >>and this is happening today, although I do agree it isn't totally 
> >>complete.
> >>
> >>On Thu, 11 Feb 2010, John G. Heim wrote:
> >>
> >>> I just think you are over stating your case. I'm sure the speakup
> >>> developers would love to support USB.   But your original  comment was
> >>> that speakup doesn't support modern  motherboards -- which is just 
> >>>totally
> >>> untrue.  You also said that having speakup in the kernel has "no
> >>> advantage". Also untrue. I don't have a problem with your offereing the
> >>> suggestion that speakup be modified to support USB hardware synths. I 
> >>>just
> >>> think you shouldn't exaggerate the problems. After all, look at the
> >>> subject line of this thread, "Main advantages of SBL over Speakup."  If
> >>> we're going to compare sbl and speakup, lets be fair about it.
> >>>
> >>> You made it sound like speakup is already obsolete. And that's just not
> >>> true. Really, it seems to me to be a fairly small niche you are in. We
> >>> both agree that most servers have serial ports, right? So your problem 
> >>> is
> >>> that you have a desktop with no serial port but you have to have speech
> >>> right away during boot? Why can't you just use software speech on your
> >>> desktop? In fact, I'm unclear as to why it is so important to you that 
> >>>the
> >>> workstations you support have hardware synth speech. As I said, all of 
> >>>the
> >>> PCs in my department have serial ports (literally 100s of machines) but
> >>> when I have to do support, I just use software speech. I'm not going to
> >>> drag my hardware speech synth around with me unless I have to. Its so 
> >>>much
> >>> easier just to grap a USB headset and fire up software speech.
> >>>
> >>> Actually, some years ago, I posted a message to this list about how you
> >>> could modify your udev rules to recognize when your USB headset is 
> >>>plugged
> >>> into a machine and have it start software speech.  Each USB device has a
> >>> unique serial number and you can write a udev rule to run a script to
> >>> start speech when a device with a specific serial number is plugged in. 
> >>>So
> >>> its possible to sit down at a PC at the login prompt, plug in your USB
> >>> headset, and login with speech.
> >>>
> >>> ---- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor Astrope" <astrope at tabbweb.com>
> >>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
> >>> <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:09 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: Main advantages of SBL over Speakup
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> John, yes I do manage servers and I do agree that having speakup in the
> >>> kernel is immensely important if you have a serial port and synth.
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps it is different where you are, but where I live, desktops with
> >>> serial ports are extremely rare. The only ones I managed to find were 
> >>>some
> >>> low end Acers. I also found some business machines with serial ports, 
> >>> but
> >>> they are twice the cost for about half the performance as a consumer
> >>> desktop machine and we don't buy them where I work.
> >>>
> >>> Like Kelly mentioned earlier today, I also do not install speakup in the
> >>> kernels of the servers I manage, but in the machine I use to manage the
> >>> servers.
> >>>
> >>> So, I respectfully disagree with you about the availability of serial
> >>> ports in modern desktop machines and I stand by my statement that 
> >>> speakup
> >>> as a kernel-level speech system will become less relevant over time 
> >>>unless
> >>> it can support external serial ports and usb serial ports. In my 
> >>> opinion,
> >>> this is where speakup development should be focused, as more and more
> >>> people will face this issue as they upgrade their machines. But I am 
> >>> not a
> >>> speakup developer, so I have no influence on the direction it takes. I 
> >>>can
> >>> only offer my opinion, which I have stated several times on this list 
> >>> and
> >>> I can only hope that speakup developers agree with it and take up the
> >>> challenge.
> >>>
> >>> In the meantime, I do have a job to do and I will need to decide 
> >>> whether I
> >>> continue using speakup with software synth, which will make my job more
> >>> difficult or use something else like orca or a mac, which still won't
> >>> solve the problem of having access to early kernel messages, but may 
> >>> give
> >>> me more flexability going forward.
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, 10 Feb 2010, John G. Heim wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>  Well, perhaps its a minor point but plenty of modern computers have > 
> >>>serial
> >>>>  ports. I've never seen a server that didn't have a serial port. In 
> >>>fact,
> >>>>  except for laptops, I have yet to see a computer that doesn't have a 
> >>>> serial
> >>>>  port. That includes the 200 or so desktop units we have where I work. 
> >>>> Even
> >>>>  the machine I built myself has a serial port.
> >>>> >  It certainly is a huge over statement to say that having speakup in 
> >>>the
> >>>>  kernel  has no advantage. If you manage servers like I do, having > 
> >>>speakup in
> >>>>  the kernel is just about the most important thing there is for a 
> >>>screen
> >>>>  reader. I don't really care that much about what happens after the > 
> >>>machine is
> >>>>  booted. About the only time I need a run time screen reader is if > 
> >>>something
> >>>>  is wrong with networking. But mostly, I can admin these machines > 
> >>>remotely
> >>>>  after they boot.
> >>>> >  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor Astrope" > 
> >>><astrope at tabbweb.com>
> >>>>  To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." > 
> >>><speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> >>>>  Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 3:09 PM
> >>>>  Subject: Re: Main advantages of SBL over Speakup
> >>>> > >  Samuel, do you mean there is no kernel convention for accessing 
> >>>serial
> >>>>  ports or there is no speakup support for accessing serial ports > 
> >>>according
> >>>>  to kernel conventions?
> >>>> >  It would be really great if speakup could use ttyS# devices, so 
> >>>speakup
> >>>>  would work with modern motherboards that do not have built-in serial
> >>>>  ports. The way I see it is speakup can only use software speech on > 
> >>>modern
> >>>>  computers, so unless it can access external serial ports or usb serial
> >>>>  ports, there really is no advantage to speakup being in the kernel so 
> >>>> far
> >>>>  as I can tell...
> >>>> >  On Tue, 9 Feb 2010, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> >>>> > >  Bill Cox, le Tue 09 Feb 2010 14:23:25 -0500, a ?crit :
> >>>> > >  I hear that it doesn't follow kernel
> >>>> > >  programming conventions, for example in how it interfaces to the 
> >>>COM
> >>>> > >  ports.
> >>>> > > >  Yes, because no such thing exists (yet).
> >>>> > > >  Samuel
> >>>> >  _______________________________________________
> >>>> >  Speakup mailing list
> >>>> >  Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> >>>> >  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>>> > > > > > > > 
> >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> > > >  _______________________________________________
> >>>> >  Speakup mailing list
> >>>> >  Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> >>>> >  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>>> > > >  _______________________________________________
> >>>>  Speakup mailing list
> >>>>  Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> >>>>  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>>> > 
> >>>
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>  _______________________________________________
> >>>>  Speakup mailing list
> >>>>  Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> >>>>  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>>> 
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Speakup mailing list
> >>> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> >>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>>
> >>>
> >

> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


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