Main advantages of SBL over Speakup

Pia pmikeal at comcast.net
Thu Feb 11 19:25:33 EST 2010


Linux works on the Optiplex boxen we have at work.  I can't speak for any 
models of Optiplex we do not have though, but we have never ordered a Dell 
that wouldn't support it.  We have ordered computers that had hardware 
that was too new without compiling our own kernels before.  I just read 
today that the new Red Hat is supposed to support the latest Intel 
Hardware / CPUs.  Ubuntu works withe the Core i7 and Xeon equivalent, but 
not, um what are they called? The i9 I think?  They don't work yet.  You 
are probably not going to want to order something that new anyway.  I 
would say that almost all of your Dell boxen should be just fine under 
Linux as we have not had problems with the current offerings and have 
ordered 3 or so of them in the last year that I have put Linux on for 
work.

On Thu, 11 Feb 2010, Trevor Astrope wrote:

> Hi Butch,
>
> Check out the Dell Optiplex line. I'm not sure if all Optiplex models have a 
> serial port, but there are some that do. It should be fine for XP, but Dell 
> said linux is not supported on the Optiplex line. This doesn't mean that 
> Linux won't install or work on these machines, but ymmv. John likely has more 
> experience with linux on these  machines and might be able to provide more 
> info...
>
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010, Butch Bussen wrote:
>
>> A bit off topic, but can you tell me which Dell business machine has a 
>> serial port? model?  I need a better machine for xp, but I need at least 
>> one and preferably two serial ports.
>> Thanks.
>> 73
>> Butch Bussen
>> wa0vjr
>> open Node 3148
>> Las Vegas
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010, Trevor Astrope wrote:
>> 
>>> John, what I said is there is no advantage to having speakup in the kernel 
>>> if it cannot support serial synths on modern computers and I stand by my 
>>> statement that most modern computers do not come with serial ports. I know 
>>> there is a Dell business machine that does, but these are the exception, 
>>> not the rule and are also much more expensive.
>>> 
>>> Basically, my point is speakup needs to support external serial ports 
>>> and/or usb serial ports going forward or it loses any advantage it has of 
>>> being in the kernel. If software speech is the only option for the 
>>> majority of computers, than there is really no point of speakup being in 
>>> the kernel.
>>> 
>>> Feel free to disagree, but I think my statements are accurate and you will 
>>> find that over time you will find fewer and fewer machines with built-in 
>>> serial ports, as usb was intended to replace rs232 serial ports and this 
>>> is happening today, although I do agree it isn't totally complete.
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>
>>>>  I just think you are over stating your case. I'm sure the speakup
>>>>  developers would love to support USB.   But your original  comment was
>>>>  that speakup doesn't support modern  motherboards -- which is just 
>>>> totally
>>>>  untrue.  You also said that having speakup in the kernel has "no
>>>>  advantage". Also untrue. I don't have a problem with your offereing the
>>>>  suggestion that speakup be modified to support USB hardware synths. I 
>>>> just
>>>>  think you shouldn't exaggerate the problems. After all, look at the
>>>>  subject line of this thread, "Main advantages of SBL over Speakup."  If
>>>>  we're going to compare sbl and speakup, lets be fair about it.
>>>>
>>>>  You made it sound like speakup is already obsolete. And that's just not
>>>>  true. Really, it seems to me to be a fairly small niche you are in. We
>>>>  both agree that most servers have serial ports, right? So your problem 
>>>> is
>>>>  that you have a desktop with no serial port but you have to have speech
>>>>  right away during boot? Why can't you just use software speech on your
>>>>  desktop? In fact, I'm unclear as to why it is so important to you that 
>>>> the
>>>>  workstations you support have hardware synth speech. As I said, all of 
>>>> the
>>>>  PCs in my department have serial ports (literally 100s of machines) but
>>>>  when I have to do support, I just use software speech. I'm not going to
>>>>  drag my hardware speech synth around with me unless I have to. Its so 
>>>> much
>>>>  easier just to grap a USB headset and fire up software speech.
>>>>
>>>>  Actually, some years ago, I posted a message to this list about how you
>>>>  could modify your udev rules to recognize when your USB headset is 
>>>> plugged
>>>>  into a machine and have it start software speech.  Each USB device has a
>>>>  unique serial number and you can write a udev rule to run a script to
>>>>  start speech when a device with a specific serial number is plugged in. 
>>>> So
>>>>  its possible to sit down at a PC at the login prompt, plug in your USB
>>>>  headset, and login with speech.
>>>>
>>>>  ---- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor Astrope" <astrope at tabbweb.com>
>>>>  To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>>  <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
>>>>  Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:09 PM
>>>>  Subject: Re: Main advantages of SBL over Speakup
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>  John, yes I do manage servers and I do agree that having speakup in the
>>>>  kernel is immensely important if you have a serial port and synth.
>>>>
>>>>  Perhaps it is different where you are, but where I live, desktops with
>>>>  serial ports are extremely rare. The only ones I managed to find were 
>>>> some
>>>>  low end Acers. I also found some business machines with serial ports, 
>>>> but
>>>>  they are twice the cost for about half the performance as a consumer
>>>>  desktop machine and we don't buy them where I work.
>>>>
>>>>  Like Kelly mentioned earlier today, I also do not install speakup in the
>>>>  kernels of the servers I manage, but in the machine I use to manage the
>>>>  servers.
>>>>
>>>>  So, I respectfully disagree with you about the availability of serial
>>>>  ports in modern desktop machines and I stand by my statement that 
>>>> speakup
>>>>  as a kernel-level speech system will become less relevant over time 
>>>> unless
>>>>  it can support external serial ports and usb serial ports. In my 
>>>> opinion,
>>>>  this is where speakup development should be focused, as more and more
>>>>  people will face this issue as they upgrade their machines. But I am not 
>>>> a
>>>>  speakup developer, so I have no influence on the direction it takes. I 
>>>> can
>>>>  only offer my opinion, which I have stated several times on this list 
>>>> and
>>>>  I can only hope that speakup developers agree with it and take up the
>>>>  challenge.
>>>>
>>>>  In the meantime, I do have a job to do and I will need to decide whether 
>>>> I
>>>>  continue using speakup with software synth, which will make my job more
>>>>  difficult or use something else like orca or a mac, which still won't
>>>>  solve the problem of having access to early kernel messages, but may 
>>>> give
>>>>  me more flexability going forward.
>>>>
>>>>  On Wed, 10 Feb 2010, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> >  Well, perhaps its a minor point but plenty of modern computers have > 
>>>> serial
>>>> >  ports. I've never seen a server that didn't have a serial port. In 
>>>> fact,
>>>> >  except for laptops, I have yet to see a computer that doesn't have a > 
>>>> serial
>>>> >  port. That includes the 200 or so desktop units we have where I work. 
>>>> > Even
>>>> >  the machine I built myself has a serial port.
>>>> > >  It certainly is a huge over statement to say that having speakup in 
>>>> the
>>>> >  kernel  has no advantage. If you manage servers like I do, having > 
>>>> speakup in
>>>> >  the kernel is just about the most important thing there is for a 
>>>> screen
>>>> >  reader. I don't really care that much about what happens after the > 
>>>> machine is
>>>> >  booted. About the only time I need a run time screen reader is if > 
>>>> something
>>>> >  is wrong with networking. But mostly, I can admin these machines > 
>>>> remotely
>>>> >  after they boot.
>>>> > >  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor Astrope" > 
>>>> <astrope at tabbweb.com>
>>>> >  To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." > 
>>>> <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> >  Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 3:09 PM
>>>> >  Subject: Re: Main advantages of SBL over Speakup
>>>> > > >  Samuel, do you mean there is no kernel convention for accessing 
>>>> serial
>>>> >  ports or there is no speakup support for accessing serial ports > 
>>>> according
>>>> >  to kernel conventions?
>>>> > >  It would be really great if speakup could use ttyS# devices, so 
>>>> speakup
>>>> >  would work with modern motherboards that do not have built-in serial
>>>> >  ports. The way I see it is speakup can only use software speech on > 
>>>> modern
>>>> >  computers, so unless it can access external serial ports or usb serial
>>>> >  ports, there really is no advantage to speakup being in the kernel so 
>>>> > far
>>>> >  as I can tell...
>>>> > >  On Tue, 9 Feb 2010, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>>>> > > >  Bill Cox, le Tue 09 Feb 2010 14:23:25 -0500, a écrit :
>>>> > > >  I hear that it doesn't follow kernel
>>>> > > >  programming conventions, for example in how it interfaces to the 
>>>> COM
>>>> > > >  ports.
>>>> > > > >  Yes, because no such thing exists (yet).
>>>> > > > >  Samuel
>>>> > >  _______________________________________________
>>>> > >  Speakup mailing list
>>>> > >  Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>>>> > >  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>> > > > > > > > > 
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> > > > >  _______________________________________________
>>>> > >  Speakup mailing list
>>>> > >  Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>>>> > >  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>> > > > >  _______________________________________________
>>>> >  Speakup mailing list
>>>> >  Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>>>> >  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>> > >
>>>>  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> >  _______________________________________________
>>>> >  Speakup mailing list
>>>> >  Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>>>> >  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>> >  _______________________________________________
>>>>  Speakup mailing list
>>>>  Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>>>>  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>> 
>>>> 
>


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