Main advantages of SBL over Speakup

John G. Heim jheim at math.wisc.edu
Fri Feb 12 13:12:16 EST 2010 

We are buying single machines all the time for individual professors. I 
never pay any attention to which model they get. But they've all had a 
serial port. We've ordered dozens of different machines from Dell over the 
past few years of all types, small foot print machines, towers, servers and 
they've all had serial ports. For the record, our most recent departments 
purchases were Dell OptiPlex 760s. And yeah, they have a single serial port. 
So I can't say that all Dells have a serial port but so far, that has been 
my experience.

But one thing I can agree with is that  workstations with two built in 
serial ports are long gone. You'll never find one of those. Although, you 
could probably add a serial card for the second serial port. It wouldn't 
work with speakup but you could run a getty on it.

Even with my educational discount, I prefer to build my own machines. A 
couple of years   ago I built a machine with an Asus m4 mobo. It has a 
serial port header block so I had to buy an adapter seperately. Of course, 
that was nothing for me because I remember back when machines were all like 
that. You'd buy a computer and when you opened it up, it would have a cable 
running from the mobo to the case for the serial port. Then for a long time 
they were built in so that the serial port would line up with a hole in the 
case.  I had a whole bunch of those adapters salvaged from old machines. I 
always strip a machine before trashing it. But I found that'd I'd given all 
those adapters away.  So I had to buy one. Even so, if you find another junk 
collector like me,he might just give it to you.

My most recent purchase is an MSI mobo. It cost over $100 though. I don't 
have the model number handy. I didn't actually even look for a mobo with a 
serial port. I was happy to see that it had one but I picked it for iths 
other features.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow at gmx.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: Main advantages of SBL over Speakup


> What I've found with Dell with regards to linux support is they only
> "support" it on server machines, but in my experience it works fine on
> their desktop/laptop lines, at least the business ones.
> On Thu, Feb 11,
> 2010 at 01:46:10PM -0500, Trevor Astrope wrote:
>> Hi Butch,
>>
>> Check out the Dell Optiplex line. I'm not sure if all Optiplex models 
>> have
>> a serial port, but there are some that do. It should be fine for XP, but
>> Dell said linux is not supported on the Optiplex line. This doesn't mean
>> that Linux won't install or work on these machines, but ymmv. John likely
>> has more experience with linux on these  machines and might be able to
>> provide more info...
>>
>> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>
>> >A bit off topic, but can you tell me which Dell business machine has a
>> >serial port? model?  I need a better machine for xp, but I need at least
>> >one and preferably two serial ports.
>> >Thanks.
>> >73
>> >Butch Bussen
>> >wa0vjr
>> >open Node 3148
>> >Las Vegas
>> >
>> >
>> >On Thu, 11 Feb 2010, Trevor Astrope wrote:
>> >
>> >>John, what I said is there is no advantage to having speakup in the
>> >>kernel if it cannot support serial synths on modern computers and I 
>> >>stand
>> >>by my statement that most modern computers do not come with serial 
>> >>ports.
>> >>I know there is a Dell business machine that does, but these are the
>> >>exception, not the rule and are also much more expensive.
>> >>
>> >>Basically, my point is speakup needs to support external serial ports
>> >>and/or usb serial ports going forward or it loses any advantage it has 
>> >>of
>> >>being in the kernel. If software speech is the only option for the
>> >>majority of computers, than there is really no point of speakup being 
>> >>in
>> >>the kernel.
>> >>
>> >>Feel free to disagree, but I think my statements are accurate and you
>> >>will find that over time you will find fewer and fewer machines with
>> >>built-in serial ports, as usb was intended to replace rs232 serial 
>> >>ports
>> >>and this is happening today, although I do agree it isn't totally
>> >>complete.
>> >>
>> >>On Thu, 11 Feb 2010, John G. Heim wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I just think you are over stating your case. I'm sure the speakup
>> >>> developers would love to support USB.   But your original  comment 
>> >>> was
>> >>> that speakup doesn't support modern  motherboards -- which is just
>> >>>totally
>> >>> untrue.  You also said that having speakup in the kernel has "no
>> >>> advantage". Also untrue. I don't have a problem with your offereing 
>> >>> the
>> >>> suggestion that speakup be modified to support USB hardware synths. I
>> >>>just
>> >>> think you shouldn't exaggerate the problems. After all, look at the
>> >>> subject line of this thread, "Main advantages of SBL over Speakup." 
>> >>> If
>> >>> we're going to compare sbl and speakup, lets be fair about it.
>> >>>
>> >>> You made it sound like speakup is already obsolete. And that's just 
>> >>> not
>> >>> true. Really, it seems to me to be a fairly small niche you are in. 
>> >>> We
>> >>> both agree that most servers have serial ports, right? So your 
>> >>> problem
>> >>> is
>> >>> that you have a desktop with no serial port but you have to have 
>> >>> speech
>> >>> right away during boot? Why can't you just use software speech on 
>> >>> your
>> >>> desktop? In fact, I'm unclear as to why it is so important to you 
>> >>> that
>> >>>the
>> >>> workstations you support have hardware synth speech. As I said, all 
>> >>> of
>> >>>the
>> >>> PCs in my department have serial ports (literally 100s of machines) 
>> >>> but
>> >>> when I have to do support, I just use software speech. I'm not going 
>> >>> to
>> >>> drag my hardware speech synth around with me unless I have to. Its so
>> >>>much
>> >>> easier just to grap a USB headset and fire up software speech.
>> >>>
>> >>> Actually, some years ago, I posted a message to this list about how 
>> >>> you
>> >>> could modify your udev rules to recognize when your USB headset is
>> >>>plugged
>> >>> into a machine and have it start software speech.  Each USB device 
>> >>> has a
>> >>> unique serial number and you can write a udev rule to run a script to
>> >>> start speech when a device with a specific serial number is plugged 
>> >>> in.
>> >>>So
>> >>> its possible to sit down at a PC at the login prompt, plug in your 
>> >>> USB
>> >>> headset, and login with speech.
>> >>>
>> >>> ---- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor Astrope" 
>> >>> <astrope at tabbweb.com>
>> >>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>> >>> <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:09 PM
>> >>> Subject: Re: Main advantages of SBL over Speakup
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> John, yes I do manage servers and I do agree that having speakup in 
>> >>> the
>> >>> kernel is immensely important if you have a serial port and synth.
>> >>>
>> >>> Perhaps it is different where you are, but where I live, desktops 
>> >>> with
>> >>> serial ports are extremely rare. The only ones I managed to find were
>> >>>some
>> >>> low end Acers. I also found some business machines with serial ports,
>> >>> but
>> >>> they are twice the cost for about half the performance as a consumer
>> >>> desktop machine and we don't buy them where I work.
>> >>>
>> >>> Like Kelly mentioned earlier today, I also do not install speakup in 
>> >>> the
>> >>> kernels of the servers I manage, but in the machine I use to manage 
>> >>> the
>> >>> servers.
>> >>>
>> >>> So, I respectfully disagree with you about the availability of serial
>> >>> ports in modern desktop machines and I stand by my statement that
>> >>> speakup
>> >>> as a kernel-level speech system will become less relevant over time
>> >>>unless
>> >>> it can support external serial ports and usb serial ports. In my
>> >>> opinion,
>> >>> this is where speakup development should be focused, as more and more
>> >>> people will face this issue as they upgrade their machines. But I am
>> >>> not a
>> >>> speakup developer, so I have no influence on the direction it takes. 
>> >>> I
>> >>>can
>> >>> only offer my opinion, which I have stated several times on this list
>> >>> and
>> >>> I can only hope that speakup developers agree with it and take up the
>> >>> challenge.
>> >>>
>> >>> In the meantime, I do have a job to do and I will need to decide
>> >>> whether I
>> >>> continue using speakup with software synth, which will make my job 
>> >>> more
>> >>> difficult or use something else like orca or a mac, which still won't
>> >>> solve the problem of having access to early kernel messages, but may
>> >>> give
>> >>> me more flexability going forward.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, 10 Feb 2010, John G. Heim wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>  Well, perhaps its a minor point but plenty of modern computers have 
>> >>>>  >
>> >>>serial
>> >>>>  ports. I've never seen a server that didn't have a serial port. In
>> >>>fact,
>> >>>>  except for laptops, I have yet to see a computer that doesn't have 
>> >>>> a
>> >>>> serial
>> >>>>  port. That includes the 200 or so desktop units we have where I 
>> >>>> work.
>> >>>> Even
>> >>>>  the machine I built myself has a serial port.
>> >>>> >  It certainly is a huge over statement to say that having speakup 
>> >>>> > in
>> >>>the
>> >>>>  kernel  has no advantage. If you manage servers like I do, having >
>> >>>speakup in
>> >>>>  the kernel is just about the most important thing there is for a
>> >>>screen
>> >>>>  reader. I don't really care that much about what happens after the 
>> >>>>  >
>> >>>machine is
>> >>>>  booted. About the only time I need a run time screen reader is if >
>> >>>something
>> >>>>  is wrong with networking. But mostly, I can admin these machines >
>> >>>remotely
>> >>>>  after they boot.
>> >>>> >  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor Astrope" >
>> >>><astrope at tabbweb.com>
>> >>>>  To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." >
>> >>><speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
>> >>>>  Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 3:09 PM
>> >>>>  Subject: Re: Main advantages of SBL over Speakup
>> >>>> > >  Samuel, do you mean there is no kernel convention for accessing
>> >>>serial
>> >>>>  ports or there is no speakup support for accessing serial ports >
>> >>>according
>> >>>>  to kernel conventions?
>> >>>> >  It would be really great if speakup could use ttyS# devices, so
>> >>>speakup
>> >>>>  would work with modern motherboards that do not have built-in 
>> >>>> serial
>> >>>>  ports. The way I see it is speakup can only use software speech on 
>> >>>>  >
>> >>>modern
>> >>>>  computers, so unless it can access external serial ports or usb 
>> >>>> serial
>> >>>>  ports, there really is no advantage to speakup being in the kernel 
>> >>>> so
>> >>>> far
>> >>>>  as I can tell...
>> >>>> >  On Tue, 9 Feb 2010, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>> >>>> > >  Bill Cox, le Tue 09 Feb 2010 14:23:25 -0500, a ?crit :
>> >>>> > >  I hear that it doesn't follow kernel
>> >>>> > >  programming conventions, for example in how it interfaces to 
>> >>>> > > the
>> >>>COM
>> >>>> > >  ports.
>> >>>> > > >  Yes, because no such thing exists (yet).
>> >>>> > > >  Samuel
>> >>>> >  _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >  Speakup mailing list
>> >>>> >  Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>> >>>> >  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> >>>> > > > > > > >
>> >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>> > > >  _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >  Speakup mailing list
>> >>>> >  Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>> >>>> >  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> >>>> > > >  _______________________________________________
>> >>>>  Speakup mailing list
>> >>>>  Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>> >>>>  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> >>>> >
>> >>>
>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>  _______________________________________________
>> >>>>  Speakup mailing list
>> >>>>  Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>> >>>>  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> >>>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Speakup mailing list
>> >>> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>> >>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> -- 
> [In 'Doctor' mode], I spent a good ten minutes telling Emacs what I
> thought of it.  (The response was, 'Perhaps you could try to be less
> abusive.')
> -- Matt Welsh
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

More information about the Speakup mailing list