Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

Thomas Ward tward at bright.net
Tue Jan 22 22:28:50 EST 2002 

Sure go ahead. I think we need to get this cleared up. It is important to
let them know that x is not anything like windows from a programming
standpoint.
Oh, sure the desktops like Gnome have icons, buttons, dialogs, etc however
from a programming standpoint they are completely different.
MSAA was MS's way of making up for closing the barn door after the horse was
out. As Kirk stated in a post Linux tries to standardize all kinds of
things, and that standardization will pay off in the long run fas far as
access is concerned. Assuming Gnopernicus is written properly, and
everything works as expected.

----- Original Message -----
From: Amanda Lee <amanda at shellworld.net>
To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)


> Thank you.  I will, if you don't mind, cross post this to the ACB list
> because there is some mis-information presented.  This is what I was
looking
> for ha!  How refreshing from a software developer's background and as a
> blind user, how utterly like a breath of clean fresh air!
>
> Amanda Lee
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thomas Ward" <tward at bright.net>
> To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
>
>
> > Hi, let me come at this from another angle. In the Windows world a piece
> of
> > software is written, and the company then expects the screen reader
> > manufacturer to modify their screen reader to support their app. Some
such
> > as Microslop include MSAA support to help the screen reader along after
> the
> > fact.
> > In Gnome 2 we want to write the screen reader, and sstandardize all the
> tool
> > kits, documentation, and even the sample source code to clearly show
> someone
> > how to write an an accessible app, or to upgrade their app so that it
> works
> > with Gnopernicus. So rather than making the screen reader work with the
> app
> > we want the desktop and apps to work with the screen reader.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Amanda Lee <amanda at shellworld.net>
> > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
> >
> >
> > > So in broad terms, the features are equivalent to MSAA?  However,
> there's
> > a
> > > cleaner interface than what MSAA provides because of the overal
> > > standardization of what is already standardized in Linux???
> > >
> > >
> > > Amanda Lee
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Thomas Ward" <tward at bright.net>
> > > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 7:43 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi. Wo, hold on here!
> > > >
> > > > Ok, let me explain what we are doing with Gnome to clarify things.
> > First,
> > > > the gtk tool kit, from which Gnome is written in,  is being
rewritten
> so
> > > > that anyone using the standard controls, widgets, etc will build
> > > accessible
> > > > apps from the get go. Gnome has also been upgraded with speech hooks
> > that
> > > > will tell the screen reader what is being presented. Finally, Sun
will
> > be
> > > > introducing something like the Java Access bridge so that
Gnopernicus
> > can
> > > > handle Java applications under Linux. Does this clear things up?
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Charles Crawford <ccrawford at acb.org>
> > > > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 2:27 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >          Thanks.  I understand what you are saying.  Does this
mean
> > that
> > > > > there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows?
> > Would
> > > we
> > > > > need some kind of major off-screen model?
> > > > >
> > > > > -- charlie Crawford.
> > > > >
> > > > > At 11:09 AM 1/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > > > > >Actually, being familiar with X myself, I'll answer this one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Xwindows, is a misnomer, in reality, it's just an X server, and
> > > clients.
> > > > The
> > > > > >server draws to the screen, and sends user input to the clients.
> The
> > > > clients
> > > > > >are the applications, the clients are usually on the same machine
> as
> > > the
> > > > > >server, but they don't have to be.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >X itself is nothing more than a network protocol for sending
> graphic
> > > data
> > > > to
> > > > > >an X workstation, the X protocol has no provisions for button,
text
> > > box,
> > > > or
> > > > > >any widgets for that matter, it has: line, circle, filled circle,
> > > > rectangle,
> > > > > >filled rectangle, pixmap, etc...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >X also sends keyboard input and mouse click locations to the
> > > applications
> > > > > >that own the windows they occur in.  Beyond that, X's only other
> > > > capability
> > > > > >is to send text glyphs (rendered in a given font) back to
> > applications
> > > > that
> > > > > >request them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >As for widgets, and controls, and a nice unified API for writing
> > > > programs,
> > > > > >you need a "toolkit library". What's a toolkit library you ask? A
> > > better
> > > > > >question might be "what isn't a toolkit library?"
> > > > > >First of all, there are a lot of toolkit libraries out there,
some
> > are
> > > > very
> > > > > >simple (Athena) while some have a full-blown callback API and can
> be
> > > > adjusted
> > > > > >with themes (GTK, GTK+) and some are object-oriented C++ based
APIs
> > > (QT).
> > > > > >They all basically do the same thing, provide
> > > > functions/objects/structures to
> > > > > >the application to draw typical GUI widgets, and send draw
requests
> > to
> > > > the X
> > > > > >server. Here's the hairy part, each toolkit has its own look and
> > feel,
> > > > has
> > > > > >its own API, has its own conventions, and basically has its own
> > > > everything.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >There's also the seperate window manager, which is simply another
X
> > > > client
> > > > > >which registers a few special functions with the X server so it
can
> > get
> > > > the
> > > > > >location and owner of each window and add decorations and task
> > > switching
> > > > > >behavior. Some (most) window managers do more than this, but they
> all
> > > do
> > > > at
> > > > > >least this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Windows, on the other had, has the equivalent of the toolkit
> library
> > > and
> > > > > >window manager built into the kernel (sort of) and most
> applications
> > > > either
> > > > > >use that, or a custom one that is very similar to it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I'm sure this is incomplete, but I've already been wracking my
> brain
> > > for
> > > > an
> > > > > >hour over it, so I'll close here, feel free to ask questions or
> tell
> > me
> > > > about
> > > > > >parts that are unclear.
> > > > > > >       Good to see you on this list.  I wonder if there are
some
> > > folks
> > > > > > out there
> > > > > > > familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that
goes
> > on
> > > > with
> > > > > > > it?  I have no idea.  Is it the same icons and rdio buttons
and
> > all
> > > of
> > > > > > > tht?  How is it different than windows and how much more easy
> > would
> > > > access
> > > > > > > be to develop in the XWindows environment?  These are
important
> > > > questions
> > > > > > > to your point I imagine.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
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