Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

Amanda Lee amanda at shellworld.net
Tue Jan 22 22:39:55 EST 2002 

Yes, I tried to make that point albeit I was probably a bit overzealous ha!
this is very exciting though as in the longrun, it will afford better
Accessibility in a windowed environment.

Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <tward at bright.net>
To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)


> Sure go ahead. I think we need to get this cleared up. It is important to
> let them know that x is not anything like windows from a programming
> standpoint.
> Oh, sure the desktops like Gnome have icons, buttons, dialogs, etc however
> from a programming standpoint they are completely different.
> MSAA was MS's way of making up for closing the barn door after the horse
was
> out. As Kirk stated in a post Linux tries to standardize all kinds of
> things, and that standardization will pay off in the long run fas far as
> access is concerned. Assuming Gnopernicus is written properly, and
> everything works as expected.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Amanda Lee <amanda at shellworld.net>
> To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
>
>
> > Thank you.  I will, if you don't mind, cross post this to the ACB list
> > because there is some mis-information presented.  This is what I was
> looking
> > for ha!  How refreshing from a software developer's background and as a
> > blind user, how utterly like a breath of clean fresh air!
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Thomas Ward" <tward at bright.net>
> > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
> >
> >
> > > Hi, let me come at this from another angle. In the Windows world a
piece
> > of
> > > software is written, and the company then expects the screen reader
> > > manufacturer to modify their screen reader to support their app. Some
> such
> > > as Microslop include MSAA support to help the screen reader along
after
> > the
> > > fact.
> > > In Gnome 2 we want to write the screen reader, and sstandardize all
the
> > tool
> > > kits, documentation, and even the sample source code to clearly show
> > someone
> > > how to write an an accessible app, or to upgrade their app so that it
> > works
> > > with Gnopernicus. So rather than making the screen reader work with
the
> > app
> > > we want the desktop and apps to work with the screen reader.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Amanda Lee <amanda at shellworld.net>
> > > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:00 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
> > >
> > >
> > > > So in broad terms, the features are equivalent to MSAA?  However,
> > there's
> > > a
> > > > cleaner interface than what MSAA provides because of the overal
> > > > standardization of what is already standardized in Linux???
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Amanda Lee
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Thomas Ward" <tward at bright.net>
> > > > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 7:43 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi. Wo, hold on here!
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok, let me explain what we are doing with Gnome to clarify things.
> > > First,
> > > > > the gtk tool kit, from which Gnome is written in,  is being
> rewritten
> > so
> > > > > that anyone using the standard controls, widgets, etc will build
> > > > accessible
> > > > > apps from the get go. Gnome has also been upgraded with speech
hooks
> > > that
> > > > > will tell the screen reader what is being presented. Finally, Sun
> will
> > > be
> > > > > introducing something like the Java Access bridge so that
> Gnopernicus
> > > can
> > > > > handle Java applications under Linux. Does this clear things up?
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Charles Crawford <ccrawford at acb.org>
> > > > > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 2:27 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >          Thanks.  I understand what you are saying.  Does this
> mean
> > > that
> > > > > > there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows?
> > > Would
> > > > we
> > > > > > need some kind of major off-screen model?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -- charlie Crawford.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 11:09 AM 1/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > > > > > >Actually, being familiar with X myself, I'll answer this one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Xwindows, is a misnomer, in reality, it's just an X server, and
> > > > clients.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > >server draws to the screen, and sends user input to the
clients.
> > The
> > > > > clients
> > > > > > >are the applications, the clients are usually on the same
machine
> > as
> > > > the
> > > > > > >server, but they don't have to be.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >X itself is nothing more than a network protocol for sending
> > graphic
> > > > data
> > > > > to
> > > > > > >an X workstation, the X protocol has no provisions for button,
> text
> > > > box,
> > > > > or
> > > > > > >any widgets for that matter, it has: line, circle, filled
circle,
> > > > > rectangle,
> > > > > > >filled rectangle, pixmap, etc...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >X also sends keyboard input and mouse click locations to the
> > > > applications
> > > > > > >that own the windows they occur in.  Beyond that, X's only
other
> > > > > capability
> > > > > > >is to send text glyphs (rendered in a given font) back to
> > > applications
> > > > > that
> > > > > > >request them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >As for widgets, and controls, and a nice unified API for
writing
> > > > > programs,
> > > > > > >you need a "toolkit library". What's a toolkit library you ask?
A
> > > > better
> > > > > > >question might be "what isn't a toolkit library?"
> > > > > > >First of all, there are a lot of toolkit libraries out there,
> some
> > > are
> > > > > very
> > > > > > >simple (Athena) while some have a full-blown callback API and
can
> > be
> > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > >with themes (GTK, GTK+) and some are object-oriented C++ based
> APIs
> > > > (QT).
> > > > > > >They all basically do the same thing, provide
> > > > > functions/objects/structures to
> > > > > > >the application to draw typical GUI widgets, and send draw
> requests
> > > to
> > > > > the X
> > > > > > >server. Here's the hairy part, each toolkit has its own look
and
> > > feel,
> > > > > has
> > > > > > >its own API, has its own conventions, and basically has its own
> > > > > everything.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >There's also the seperate window manager, which is simply
another
> X
> > > > > client
> > > > > > >which registers a few special functions with the X server so it
> can
> > > get
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >location and owner of each window and add decorations and task
> > > > switching
> > > > > > >behavior. Some (most) window managers do more than this, but
they
> > all
> > > > do
> > > > > at
> > > > > > >least this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Windows, on the other had, has the equivalent of the toolkit
> > library
> > > > and
> > > > > > >window manager built into the kernel (sort of) and most
> > applications
> > > > > either
> > > > > > >use that, or a custom one that is very similar to it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I'm sure this is incomplete, but I've already been wracking my
> > brain
> > > > for
> > > > > an
> > > > > > >hour over it, so I'll close here, feel free to ask questions or
> > tell
> > > me
> > > > > about
> > > > > > >parts that are unclear.
> > > > > > > >       Good to see you on this list.  I wonder if there are
> some
> > > > folks
> > > > > > > out there
> > > > > > > > familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that
> goes
> > > on
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > it?  I have no idea.  Is it the same icons and rdio buttons
> and
> > > all
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > tht?  How is it different than windows and how much more
easy
> > > would
> > > > > access
> > > > > > > > be to develop in the XWindows environment?  These are
> important
> > > > > questions
> > > > > > > > to your point I imagine.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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