speakup todo?

Sun Sep 16 21:18:16 EDT 2012

Maybe I'm missing something because it's too close to my bed time, but why
is this thread comparing blind people using Windows with blind people using
Speakup, rather than use of JFW in Windows with Orca and one of the Linux
desktops?  Somebody averse to the command line would stick to Orca, would he
or she not?  

I'd think a better comparison would be between the Windows command prompt
and a Linux console.  (I've used that of XP, but don't know the quality of
whatever command prompt Windows 7 or 8 has.) I gather the Windows command
prompt has more to it than it usually gets credited for, but I find using
JFW in it is of minimal help.  (I found Orca to be like that in a terminal;
I don't know if that's still true.) In contrast, Speakup in the Linux
console is much more usable.  The keys are easy to learn.  Why would I want
to change those to emulate JFW keystrokes?

Incidentally, I don't mind if Orca borrows the best JFW has to offer, but
that should only be for making Orca the best it can be, not adopting more of
JFW than is truly better.  If people can learn the Mac and VoiceOver, as
others have noted, it seems bizarre to me to suppose that they can't do as
well learning Linux.  

Just my fake dime's worth.

Al 

-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces at braille.uwo.ca] On Behalf Of Glenn
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 6:50 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: speakup todo?

You wrote:
Now, on to your OS comment. Do you currently use Linux with Speakup?
Because this isn't something "less techy folks" are going to do. Yes, I
would love to see Linux as a viable option to replace Windows for blind
people, but it's not there and changing Speakups key bindings to work more
like Jaws isn't going to get it there.
* that is an untested opinion.
Glenn

On 9/16/2012 4:33 PM, Glenn wrote:
> I am referring to the attitude, not the result.
> The attitude here is that people either have to do it this way, or not 
> at all.
> We all owe a lot to mostly sighted programmers, and some Blind ones 
> too, who wanted to make computers accessible to the Blind.
> Now that you are in, so to speak, why should you care if less techie 
> folks get to use something other than windows?
> Some sighted folks think that it is nice if we can use a computer, but 
> they don't care enough to make it happen for us.
> We see this in equipment like cell phones.
> Most people think that we all can learn a bunch of unspoken commands 
> to use a cell phone.
> I can, but I sure don't wish to do that if I don't have to.
> So many folks, for example, will use a less functional phone like the 
> Haven, because it is totally accessible, rather than having a phone 
> with bluetooth or a camera.
> Now if phone makers cared enough to make all phones accessible like 
> the Haven, then we could choose according to actual phone functions.
> Likewise, it would be nice if folks could try Linux based on its 
> merits as an OS, but because they have invested a lot into learning 
> JFW, and they will never change, because that is the path of less 
> resistance.
> And like I mentioned before, unless someone is techie enough to care 
> about it, the extra work involved is not worth it, because folks don't 
> understand the benefits of an OS like Linux.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler at tysdomain.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin at gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system 
> for Linux." <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:12 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> No, htis isn't the attitude the sighted people have. Learning a new 
> operating system requires just that, that you sit down and learn. Look 
> at all the blind people jumping on the OSX band waggon and buying 
> $1800 shiny MacBooks. They learned those, and Voiceover's keys are 
> nothing like Jaws's.
> On 9/16/2012 3:51 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> Actually, it is this attitude among the sighted, that keeps most 
>> technology from being made accessible to the Blind.
>> Wow.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac at gmail.com>
>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin at gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review 
>> system for Linux." <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
>> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
>> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
>> readers work.
>> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it 
>> full
>> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
>> expand your horizons.
>> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not
>> and
>> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to 
>> explore,
>> etc.
>> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer.
>> That
>> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances 
>> weather
>> is be linux or mac.
>> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other
>> operating
>> systems.
>> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard
>> commands
>> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn
>> how
>> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may
>> have
>> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
>> apply this to any situation.
>> If we were to stop learning. Then we would never excel and stay trapped 
>> in
>> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
>> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
>> thats where it might be a problem.
>>
>> Alonzo
>>
>>
>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin at cableone.net> wrote:
>>
>>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>>> time
>>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>>> you
>>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>>> Only the techie types do that.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler at tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin at gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system
>>> for
>>> Linux." <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>>> JFW
>>>> key mappings.
>>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect 
>>>> key
>>>> mappings.
>>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>>> screenreader users.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler at tysdomain.com>
>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>> <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello all:
>>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. 
>>>> How
>>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>>> to the console we need?
>>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>>> up a line etc.
>>>>
>>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>>> game to start coding.
>>>>
>>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>> that
>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that

dares not reason is a slave.

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Speakup mailing list
Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup