still more on bug

Fri Feb 17 06:30:15 EST 2012

Hello,
I will make a comment on the user space thing. I don't know about the effort 
in promoting existing speakup to user space but if one were to talk about 
more generally creating a screen reader to work in user space then I am sure 
something that would work for many in a satisfactory way could be created, 
there are sort of examples already existing showing approaches which could 
be used for accessing what is being displayed.

I think YASR using a system of spawning a new shell inside itself and so 
catching what is put out to that shell. One advantage of this approach is 
that it works on more than Linux, I believe it has been made to work on a 
Mac in the terminal window, with FreeBSD text consoles and solaris as well 
as Linux. I think though it does mean you need to start the screen reader 
for every terminal you wish to use. Also while I think ways have been made 
to get YASR work for login it isn't so clear and I haven't got that going 
with YASR (I am unclear on what to do). Also it may be worth noting, I don't 
know if YASR is still maintained and if it isn't why that would be the case 
(IE. is it a technical matter with YASR design or is it developer time).

Another alternative is look at BrlTTY. BrlTTY has screen drivers for 
different situations and that is something which could be done for user 
space if you want to support more than Linux although I think with BrlTTY 
the Linux text console driver may be the most advanced. Certainly on Linux 
in a text console BrlTTY seems to work very well, its extremely easy to get 
running (either once you have logged in or as a service which starts in the 
boot process and so gives access to log in). I don't know whether it would 
be possible if a new screen reader were to be done whether to use the same 
API as the BrlTTY screen drivers and so potentially make use of that 
existing work, its probably more of an issue with licensing than a technical 
one if any issue does exist.

I have to say I know little of the difficulties of working in the kernel, 
any programming I do is in Python or Java so I am better with user space 
stuff. However from a user angle, speakup possibly does need to keep up with 
technology, there seems to be an increasing demand for being able to use USB 
synths. Serial ports may not be disappearing entirely, but there are classes 
of computers (eg. laptops) where serial ports have near enough gone and even 
for desktops while serial ports may not be hard to find there may be other 
factors in choosing a computer and requiring a serial port possibly is just 
imposing an unnecessary restriction on the choice. I won't comment on how 
easy it is to add USB support in a kernel level screen reader due to my lack 
of knowledge in that area, however I do know that in user space you have 
libraries such as libusb which can help a lot in accessing USB devices (look 
at BrlTTY which has had USB support for some years now).

Finally what ever route is taken it will be some sort of compromise, if 
keeping it in the kernel provides better/more features it may come at the 
cost of development being slower than many may like, but putting it in user 
space may come at the cost of some features like boot messages not being 
accessible with the screen reader.

Michael Whapples

-----Original Message----- 
From: Littlefield, Tyler
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 12:13 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: still more on bug

I think the responses you were refering to can be discarded and ignored.
The "shitmachine" comment as well as many others didn't do much to
bolster the poster's comments, and there wasn't much in the way of fact.
Either way, I think that said poster was speaking for a very small
minority, as a lot of people would like to see Speakup get more support.

If I were a kernel guru, or had some way to hopping on that path to
enlightenment, I'd be more than willing to help out since I already know
c. I'm also lacking a USB synth, so that's another problem.
>From what I understand though, the USB subsystem would have to be
enabled for a USB synth to work. There's a lot more behind USB than
serial; I know this much from my work I've done on a toy operating
system I've been building. The external serial cards are also an issue,
unless you can get one that would fit in the internal PCI slot--that I
am unsure of. PCMCIA for example though is yet another system that has
to be enabled. This is still doable, but you're going to miss out on
earlier boot messages.

Something I've found of interest, though it requires another system to
catching boot messages is there is a networking boot setup in the
kernel. I'm not really sure "networking boot" accurately describes it,
but here are the docs:
http://www.mjmwired.net/kernel/Documentation/networking/netconsole.txt

Something else worth looking into, and I'm not really sure if it was
mentioned in this thread but it was for sure mentioned before is Speakup
in user space. I'd be 100% willing to at least help with something like
that, but I remember from previous conversations that there are reasons
why Speakup is in kernel space--the TTY access being one of them. How
possible would it be to promote speakup to User space (yeah, I guess
that would get rid of boot messages, but netconsole is always there),
and then just leave a thin layer behind in kernel space to provide the
access to the kernel that we need? From what I understand from the bit
I've done, there exists three points to access drivers from user space:
- System calls, (though it's probably prefered that these are not used,
since installing a system call would require that you know what number
it would be. If something else were to install a syscall before you, you
couldn't have a constant number).
- The proc FS, which Speakup already uses to get and set information.
- A device in /dev.

Could the TTY (and other access) be given through one of these so that
the user-space speakup could gather the information it needed? What are
the security implications of something like this? You obviously wouldn't
want to just allow raw TTY access, so I'm not sure if there would be a
way to limit this somehow.

Just my two cents and ramblings. Like I said, if there was any way to
make this work out, I'd love to help out with it. I just don't think I
know enough about kernel programming to hop in the trenches and start
fixing the bugs. Both because I don't know much about kernel
programming, and from what I understand there is need for USB support
and work for speakup running on systems with more than one processor,
neither of which I have.

On 2/16/2012 3:45 PM, Albert Sten-Clanton wrote:
> John, though the typing in my message below yours here was utterly lousy
> (too many beers), such criticisms as I made were not directed towards you,
> and I said as much there and in a later message.  Those concerning the
> acceptance of software speech were in fact aimed at earlier comments from
> somebody else.
>
> I most certainly and indisputably did not accuse you of saying that blind
> people would have to build their own machines in order to get serial 
> ports:
> nothing you said gave any basis for such an assertion on my part, so I 
> never
> made it.  (Indeed, I had noted earlier yesterday that
>
> <www.pcsforeveruyone.com>
>
> May actually offer serial ports.)
>
> Furthermore, you are among the people to whom I recall expressing 
> gratitude
> yesterday for replying positively to my question whether a blind person
> could build a machine.  I must apologize if I wrote badly, but I reiterate
> that I was not criticizing anything you said, and did not even address a
> couple of things you mention here.
>
> In sjhort, I have found your recent messages here concerning Speakup, 
> serial
> ports, and related matters helpful.  My concern here is that support for
> hardware speech may become difficult to get down the road, maybe even
> impossible for somebody not well-versed in kernel matters, and my 
> impression
> is that you may share this concern at least to some degree.
>
> Maybe using a reply to one of your messages was a bad idea; if so, for 
> that
> I apologize.  It was the vehicle I had, and, as I said above, I tried to 
> be
> clear that your comments were not the reason for my expressed concerns.
>
> Take care!
>
> Al
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces at braille.uwo.ca 
> [mailto:speakup-bounces at braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of John Heim
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 12:23 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>
> Al, practically everything you wrote below counters arguements I never 
> made.
>
> First, I didn't say blind people who want a machine with a serial port
> should go out there and build one. I offered that as one possible solution
> and, in fact, said it wasn't for everyone. It was the third option I 
> listed.
>
> Secondly, I never said people shouldn't be satisfied with software speech.
> I said hardware speech is necessary to some people for doing things like
> rescuing down servers.  If you never have to do something like that and 
> are
> happy with software speech, obviously, its fine by me.
>
> Third, I never said ordinary users of speakup shouldn't ask for new
> features.  In fact, that's exactly what I did myself when I said that
> speakup is going to have to support USB hardware synths someday.  I merely
> objected to someone elses suggestion that it wasn't likely to happen.  We
> weren't discussing whether supporting USB synths is a good idea or even
> whether its reasonable to ask for that feature. We were only disagreeing
> about how likely we are to ever see it.
>
> From: "Albert Sten-Clanton"<albert.e.sten_clanton at verizon.net>
> To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'"
> <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 6:41 PM
> Subject: RE: still more on bug
>
>
>> John, now much sight, if any, would you think is needed to build a PC
>> with serial ports?
>>
>> Not a direct respons to you, but I suspect that, if a majroity of
>> blind folks using Linux do indeed express a degree of satisfation
>> iwhth software speech, it could gbe because they're stuck with it,
>> much as most blind people use Windows because, as somebody said to me,
>> "you can't fight the giant." Software speech does have its advantages,
>> perhaps portability being the most notable one I can think of, but,
>> for those who like to know hwat's kicking in as booting progresses,
>> there's nothing like using Speakup with a hardware synthesizer.
>> (Indeed, this is a key difference between using Speakup and a hardware
>> synthesizer and dealing with a Windows machine--or DOS in the old
>> days.) For those who would say either write the relevant code or shut
>> the hell up, I'd say this:  if ordinary users don't count, then we can
>> forget Linux ever even remotely approaching Windows or any other
>> much-uused operating system in popularity.  As a believer in freedom,
>> I would regard it as an undermining of Linux'
>> S mission to declare that only the elite among us have any business
>> declaring--commanding--our destiny.  (Even Microshaft doesn't do that,
>> I
>> think.)
>>
>> I appreciate your own efforts, so wish to be clear that the comments
>> in the previous paragraph are aimed at a perspective that, as far as I
>> can tell, does not seem to be yours at this pioint.  As a user who is
>> unlikely to master the relevant code, I do not wish to be relegated to
>> the status of one who must accept whatever the alleged majority wishes
>> to inflict and the programmers wish to comply with.  I will
>> reluctantly but dutifully crawl back to Windows, or find something
>> else, if software freedom is not accompanied with top-notch software
>> quality, or if we mere user mortals are commanded to take what we're
>> given or wear muzzles.
>>
>> Al
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: speakup-bounces at braille.uwo.ca
>> [mailto:speakup-bounces at braille.uwo.ca]
>> On Behalf Of John Heim
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:53 PM
>> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
>> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>>
>> From: "Deedra Waters"<deedra at the-brannons.com>
>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>> <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:34 PM
>>> I'm saying i know several who have worked on speakup over the years
>>> and the folks who've maintained it lately can't fix it/haven't been
>>> able to is probably the better wording here. As for me, no i'm no
>>> coder at all but saying i'd be willing to work on it if i could code
>>> my way out of a wet paper bag.
>>>
>> Well, don't be so negative, okay? First of all, the current group of
>> developers are smart guys. I'm not saying they'll have it tomorrow but
>> they may get around to it eventually. And if not, I'm sure someone
>> will pick up the ball. Heck, it might even be me.
>>
>>> maybe you should tell del to start advertising the models with serial
>>> ports?:P point is like i said the machines i've gotten which are
>>> generally the shitmachines as i>  call dells haven't had them:P
>> It might be a good idea for you to ask on this list for
>> recommendations next time you need to buy a new PC. Its not difficult
>> to get a PC with a serial port. Another suggestion I have is to check
>> used computer stores. You might be able to find a slightly older
>> high-end model for cheap there. Of course, there is also the option of
>> building your own PC. I built my last two PCs myself. Admittedly, that
>> is not for the faint of heart.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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-- 

Take care,
Ty
Web: http://tds-solutions.net
The Aspen project: a light-weight barebones mud engine
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