software speech for speakup

[Gregory Nowak]

This discussion is because I for one don't care about the boot messages as long as I'm able to get speech when the login prompt comes up. I can always view the boot messages with dmesg if I want.
Greg


On Wed, May 16, 2001 at 09:47:22PM +0200, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> Guys, you all perfectly understand that there is no way to have Speakup use
> software synthesizer from the very start of the machine. So, why this
> discussion at all?
> Actually, I recall that superslim notebook computers, such as Sonny Viao,
> play a sound through their sound card at the very beginning of boot process.
> So, perhaps, theoretically it should be possible if all PC's could
> initialize the sound card in a similar way. But this is not so...
> Best,
> Victor
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina at afb.net>
> To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 6:33 PM
> Subject: Re: software speech for speakup
> 
> 
> > I'll tell you why software speech is a big deal to me. I spend a lot of
> > time on the road. Because I work for a non-profit agency, I'm not
> > usually in First Class when I'm on the airplane. I'm frequently locked
> > into a hotel conference room with anywhere from 20 to 200 other people.
> > Sometimes I have a table to spread my computer out on. Often, I just
> > have my lap. For me, software speech means that I can use linux and
> > speakup with just a headphone--nothing else. Today, it's just a lot more
> > complicated because there's that additional device, and that cable that
> > attaches that additional device to the computer. So, today, when I don't
> > have table space, I run emacspeak with ViaVoice--but I'd sure like to
> > have the speakup option, too.
> >
> > PS: When I'm on the road, I don't usually care if speech starts at the
> > very beginning of the boot process. Mostly, I don't even boot, but
> > rather use the suspend/resume feature of my laptop which, by the way,
> > works pretty well with ViaVoice.
> >
> > On Wed, 16 May 2001, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> >
> > > ok now for my 20c worth.
> > > What the hell is the deal with having software speech or not? In a way I
> > > would prefer it when there is simply no other means of speech output
> but,
> > > it has it's limitations.
> > > 1: aAs far as I'm aware, software synthesys ties up a great deal of
> system
> > > resources including the sound card unless of course you run a sb-live.
> > > 2: Remember that if you do go down the path of software synthesys, you
> > > won't have  speech right from the get go when you first turn your
> machine
> > > on.
> > > That's all I wanna say at this point. I don't know much else about but
> > > thought I'd add my thoughts on the matter.
> > >
> > >
> > > Shaun..
> > > "Has anyone ever tasted an "END"? Are they really bitter?"
> > > EMAIL: shauno at goanna.net.au ICQ: 76958435
> > > YAHOO ID: blindman01_2000 IRC NICK/SERVER: |3|1ndm4n on #aussiefriends
> on
> > > www.jong.com:6667
> > >
> > > On Tue, 15 May 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > >
> > > > Guess I'll stick with the other OS on that machine perhaps until 2010
> if need be (grin)
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 04:22:59PM +1000, Kerry Hoath wrote:
> > > > > Not at this stage. Serial ports are necessary for us to get speech
> > > > > and none of the install systems I know of come up with parallel
> consoles or
> > > > > software speech. SUSE does do braille I hear though
> > > > > On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 11:04:04AM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > > > Thanks for the interesting info on the blazer. So, it looks like a
> eyes-free install of Linux is not possible on a machine with no serial
> ports, right?
> > > > > > Greg
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 11:53:11PM +1000, Kerry Hoath wrote:
> > > > > > > Unless it is a 2.4.x kernel it can't do console on the line
> printer.
> > > > > > > Even if it does; it won't make the blaser talk; there are no
> flush codes.
> > > > > > > You need to put the blaser on a serial port and even then I
> don't know of anything
> > > > > > > other than emacspeak that supports the bns unless cvs speakup
> does. The blaser
> > > > > > > has old implementations of the bns speech code, but I believe it
> supports
> > > > > > > indexing. Doing an install of Linux with the blaser would also
> be rather bad
> > > > > > > since you have no way to shut up the speech, I've done installs
> like that and
> > > > > > > it gets old real quick especially when the kernel dumps 3k of
> messages out a
> > > > > > > port.
> > > > > > > If you can't shut it up somehow you don't want it for installs.
> One disk error
> > > > > > > will win you half an hour of speech you can't cancel, but do
> give it a try :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regarding shutting up speakup insert enter doesn't release the
> numpad and the
> > > > > > > review keys remain active. I was talking of a method to
> completely release
> > > > > > > certain consoles including the number pad.
> > > > > > > On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 11:29:36PM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > > > > > I thought we already had the ability to put speakup to sleep
> and to wake it
> > > > > > > > up with ins+numpad-enter. Also, not to get off topic ... I
> know there are
> > > > > > > > some of you out there that either have used or are still using
> emacspeak.
> > > > > > > > Any recommendations on where to start after the howto if I
> decide to take
> > > > > > > > that route until speakup gets software speech? Also, I was
> thinking of how
> > > > > > > > to install Linux on such a system without sited help. I've got
> a braille
> > > > > > > > blazer here. I thought of setting up speech through the
> blazer's parallel
> > > > > > > > port, and using the line printer console. However, when I
> include
> > > > > > > > "console=lp0" on the loadlin command line, the kernel oopses,
> and I don't
> > > > > > > > know of how to activate the console on /dev/lp0 after logon.
> Any
> > > > > > > > suggestions? Thanks.
> > > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > > > P.S. The kernel *doesn't* oops if I leave that option out.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Kerry Hoath" <kerry at gotss.eu.org>
> > > > > > > > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 10:57 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: software speech for speakup
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ok so that was all 1 big long line! I won't be slicing that
> message
> > > > > > > > > down into smaller sections in ed os it remains attached
> below.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The fundermental problem with software speech and speakup is
> this:
> > > > > > > > > speakup gets control extremely early on in the boot process,
> just after
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > console driver or at the same time. At this point; no sound
> is
> > > > > > > > initialized,
> > > > > > > > > no hard disks are known, ho usb is active, no file systems
> > > > > > > > > are mounted and therefore sound and viavoice can't yet be
> loaded.
> > > > > > > > > Via voice is a huge application, and putting it into the
> kernel isn't an
> > > > > > > > > option since it would make the kernel image too large and
> anything in
> > > > > > > > kernel
> > > > > > > > > image is unswappable and consumes memory.
> > > > > > > > > Not to mention we don't have the viavoice source so we
> > > > > > > > > can't even integrate it if we wanted to.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It may be possible to do something like keep speakup asleep
> until viavoice
> > > > > > > > > is running, and make some shim between speakup and viavoice
> but this
> > > > > > > > > is not trivial. What you are trying to do is take
> information
> > > > > > > > > from kernel space (console driver) handle it with speakup,
> hand it to
> > > > > > > > userspace
> > > > > > > > > to a program that mightn't even be running anymore, have
> that program
> > > > > > > > > synthesize the speech and pass it back to kernel land sound
> drivers that
> > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > presume you loaded. This is going to make the performance of
> the system
> > > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > cyphoning honey uphill. Even assuming the speakup mods were
> made by
> > > > > > > > somebody
> > > > > > > > > in the forseeable future, there are many more moving parts
> to make work.
> > > > > > > > > What if one of the tasks such as viavoice dies or sound
> drivers unload,
> > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > do we tell the kernel to tell user space to tell the kernel
> to tell user
> > > > > > > > space
> > > > > > > > > that something ahs gone wrong?
> > > > > > > > > Emacspeak is a user application. It calls a speech server
> > > > > > > > > to interact with its talking device and assumes that sound
> and viavoice
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > in top shape. When the speech server crashes emacspeak
> respawns it.
> > > > > > > > > What you are asking is for speakup to become re-enterant,
> the ability to
> > > > > > > > put it
> > > > > > > > > to sleep and wake it up at will and the ability to talk to
> it from user
> > > > > > > > space
> > > > > > > > > despite the fact it is kernel code and have that kernel code
> talk back to
> > > > > > > > > user space. This requires a complete redesign of speakup
> > > > > > > > > and although it may be possible, so is Bill Gates giving
> away all his
> > > > > > > > > money and becoming a hermit.
> > > > > > > > > Even if Kirk changed his mind regarding viavoice tomorrow
> and coded flat
> > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > until the project was complete it would require months of
> coding time
> > > > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > the whole system was usable if indeed it could be done.
> > > > > > > > > Remember Windows screen readers run in user land and
> although they hook
> > > > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > the windows subsystems they are applications like any other.
> Speakup is in
> > > > > > > > > the kernel itself and is part of the operating system.
> > > > > > > > > Ever had jfw or windoweyes crash and lost your speech? Often
> you are left
> > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > no clue as to why it happend and often jfw is unrestartable.
> If we were to
> > > > > > > > > have this happen in Linux it may result in bits of the
> kernel becoming
> > > > > > > > > unusable and could lead to an entire system crash.
> > > > > > > > > My personal recommendation is to learn how to use emacspeak,
> preferably
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > a seasoned emacs user and learn about term mode and shell
> mode.
> > > > > > > > > W3 is a nice browser, vm works well and so does emacspeak.
> Once you have
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > down pat, you can then use the c-mode in emacs to start
> writing the code
> > > > > > > > > for speakup and take some of the weight off the existing
> coders <smile>
> > > > > > > > > If it takes you a week to get emacspeak working for you, it
> will tide you
> > > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > until tuxtalk is ready for prime time.
> > > > > > > > > There are other userland screen readers and one supports
> software speech
> > > > > > > > can't
> > > > > > > > > remember what it is called. Use that until the massive
> > > > > > > > > modifications are in speakup itself around 2010.
> > > > > > > > > If we get more coders things might go faster, but until
> then; you might
> > > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > > to use another solution for accessability if you have no
> serial ports.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Regards, Kerry.
> > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 06:13:40PM -0500, Gregory Nowak
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Ok, here is my penny's worth on software speech for
> speakup. I certinly
> > > > > > > > don't mean to flame or unconstructively critisize here, so
> please read on if
> > > > > > > > you're interested. There are some of us that don't have serial
> ports on a
> > > > > > > > PC, but do have a sound card supported in Linux (based on some
> earlier posts
> > > > > > > > I've seen on this list, I know I'm not alone in this
> situation). As a
> > > > > > > > result, I would personally like to entirely blow away the
> other OS on such a
> > > > > > > > machine, and dedicate it to Linux (simply because I'm getting
> tired of using
> > > > > > > > the other OS on it, and because all its hardware is Linux
> compatible). I
> > > > > > > > know that Kirk mentioned that he was working on a software
> synth that would
> > > > > > > > work with speakup in the far future, and that he wouldn't
> write anything for
> > > > > > > > IBM viavoice, because it wasn't an opensource product.
> However, as I stated
> > > > > > > > earlier, there are thoes of us that would like to be able to
> use software
> > > > > > > > speech with speakup in the very soon future (now). Yes, I know
> that I could
> > > > > > > > use emacspeak which supports viavoice. However, I've recently
> downloaded it
> > > > > > > > and played with it for two days (even read  the howto). Given
> a choice of
> > > > > > > > access though, I would much rather stick with speakup. Thus,
> not writing a
> > > > > > > > driver for a product that is not opensource (and so far for me
> works without
> > > > > > > > a hitch) is a serious limitation to access. Speakup certinly
> doesn't have to
> > > > > > > > be distributted with viavoice (emacspeak isn't), but it would
> be nice to
> > > > > > > > have the option of using it. It shouldn't be that hard to
> modify a dectalk
> > > > > > > > or doubletalk PC driver to work with the speech engine. I've
> taken c++ my
> > > > > > > > junior and senior years of high scghool (AP computer science).
> Even so, I
> > > > > > > > have somewhat of an understanding on how the sample programs
> work that come
> > > > > > > > with the engine. I also plan to read the API docs, and
> hopefully learn more.
> > > > > > > > As you can see, I'm not a candidate to write the speakup
> driver for
> > > > > > > > viavoice, so I'm not volenteering. I certinly wouldn't mind
> switching to the
> > > > > > > > opensource engine when it became usable. However ... ok, I've
> wined enough.
> > > > > > > > Kirk, I guess I'm sim
> > > > > > > > > ng your mind regarding viavoice as a speech engine for
> speakup for now at
> > > > > > > > least. If there is anyone else here that agrees with me,
> please write so
> > > > > > > > that we could see how many more takers there are, and maybe
> try to persaude
> > > > > > > > Kirk some more to change his mind. Thanks for reading.
> > > > > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net
> > > > > > > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au
> > > > > > > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net
> > > > > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au
> > > > > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > --
> > > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net
> > > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au
> > > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina at afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.html
> >
> > Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther King
> Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> > http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >
> > Learn how to make accessible software at
> http://www.afb.org/technology/accessapp.html
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup