software speech for speakup

Wed May 16 15:47:22 EDT 2001

Guys, you all perfectly understand that there is no way to have Speakup use
software synthesizer from the very start of the machine. So, why this
discussion at all?
Actually, I recall that superslim notebook computers, such as Sonny Viao,
play a sound through their sound card at the very beginning of boot process.
So, perhaps, theoretically it should be possible if all PC's could
initialize the sound card in a similar way. But this is not so...
Best,
Victor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina at afb.net>
To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: software speech for speakup

> I'll tell you why software speech is a big deal to me. I spend a lot of
> time on the road. Because I work for a non-profit agency, I'm not
> usually in First Class when I'm on the airplane. I'm frequently locked
> into a hotel conference room with anywhere from 20 to 200 other people.
> Sometimes I have a table to spread my computer out on. Often, I just
> have my lap. For me, software speech means that I can use linux and
> speakup with just a headphone--nothing else. Today, it's just a lot more
> complicated because there's that additional device, and that cable that
> attaches that additional device to the computer. So, today, when I don't
> have table space, I run emacspeak with ViaVoice--but I'd sure like to
> have the speakup option, too.
>
> PS: When I'm on the road, I don't usually care if speech starts at the
> very beginning of the boot process. Mostly, I don't even boot, but
> rather use the suspend/resume feature of my laptop which, by the way,
> works pretty well with ViaVoice.
>
> On Wed, 16 May 2001, Shaun Oliver wrote:
>
> > ok now for my 20c worth.
> > What the hell is the deal with having software speech or not? In a way I
> > would prefer it when there is simply no other means of speech output
but,
> > it has it's limitations.
> > 1: aAs far as I'm aware, software synthesys ties up a great deal of
system
> > resources including the sound card unless of course you run a sb-live.
> > 2: Remember that if you do go down the path of software synthesys, you
> > won't have  speech right from the get go when you first turn your
machine
> > on.
> > That's all I wanna say at this point. I don't know much else about but
> > thought I'd add my thoughts on the matter.
> >
> >
> > Shaun..
> > "Has anyone ever tasted an "END"? Are they really bitter?"
> > EMAIL: shauno at goanna.net.au ICQ: 76958435
> > YAHOO ID: blindman01_2000 IRC NICK/SERVER: |3|1ndm4n on #aussiefriends
on
> > www.jong.com:6667
> >
> > On Tue, 15 May 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > Guess I'll stick with the other OS on that machine perhaps until 2010
if need be (grin)
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 04:22:59PM +1000, Kerry Hoath wrote:
> > > > Not at this stage. Serial ports are necessary for us to get speech
> > > > and none of the install systems I know of come up with parallel
consoles or
> > > > software speech. SUSE does do braille I hear though
> > > > On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 11:04:04AM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > > Thanks for the interesting info on the blazer. So, it looks like a
eyes-free install of Linux is not possible on a machine with no serial
ports, right?
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 11:53:11PM +1000, Kerry Hoath wrote:
> > > > > > Unless it is a 2.4.x kernel it can't do console on the line
printer.
> > > > > > Even if it does; it won't make the blaser talk; there are no
flush codes.
> > > > > > You need to put the blaser on a serial port and even then I
don't know of anything
> > > > > > other than emacspeak that supports the bns unless cvs speakup
does. The blaser
> > > > > > has old implementations of the bns speech code, but I believe it
supports
> > > > > > indexing. Doing an install of Linux with the blaser would also
be rather bad
> > > > > > since you have no way to shut up the speech, I've done installs
like that and
> > > > > > it gets old real quick especially when the kernel dumps 3k of
messages out a
> > > > > > port.
> > > > > > If you can't shut it up somehow you don't want it for installs.
One disk error
> > > > > > will win you half an hour of speech you can't cancel, but do
give it a try :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regarding shutting up speakup insert enter doesn't release the
numpad and the
> > > > > > review keys remain active. I was talking of a method to
completely release
> > > > > > certain consoles including the number pad.
> > > > > > On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 11:29:36PM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > > > > I thought we already had the ability to put speakup to sleep
and to wake it
> > > > > > > up with ins+numpad-enter. Also, not to get off topic ... I
know there are
> > > > > > > some of you out there that either have used or are still using
emacspeak.
> > > > > > > Any recommendations on where to start after the howto if I
decide to take
> > > > > > > that route until speakup gets software speech? Also, I was
thinking of how
> > > > > > > to install Linux on such a system without sited help. I've got
a braille
> > > > > > > blazer here. I thought of setting up speech through the
blazer's parallel
> > > > > > > port, and using the line printer console. However, when I
include
> > > > > > > "console=lp0" on the loadlin command line, the kernel oopses,
and I don't
> > > > > > > know of how to activate the console on /dev/lp0 after logon.
Any
> > > > > > > suggestions? Thanks.
> > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > > P.S. The kernel *doesn't* oops if I leave that option out.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Kerry Hoath" <kerry at gotss.eu.org>
> > > > > > > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 10:57 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: software speech for speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ok so that was all 1 big long line! I won't be slicing that
message
> > > > > > > > down into smaller sections in ed os it remains attached
below.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The fundermental problem with software speech and speakup is
this:
> > > > > > > > speakup gets control extremely early on in the boot process,
just after
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > console driver or at the same time. At this point; no sound
is
> > > > > > > initialized,
> > > > > > > > no hard disks are known, ho usb is active, no file systems
> > > > > > > > are mounted and therefore sound and viavoice can't yet be
loaded.
> > > > > > > > Via voice is a huge application, and putting it into the
kernel isn't an
> > > > > > > > option since it would make the kernel image too large and
anything in
> > > > > > > kernel
> > > > > > > > image is unswappable and consumes memory.
> > > > > > > > Not to mention we don't have the viavoice source so we
> > > > > > > > can't even integrate it if we wanted to.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It may be possible to do something like keep speakup asleep
until viavoice
> > > > > > > > is running, and make some shim between speakup and viavoice
but this
> > > > > > > > is not trivial. What you are trying to do is take
information
> > > > > > > > from kernel space (console driver) handle it with speakup,
hand it to
> > > > > > > userspace
> > > > > > > > to a program that mightn't even be running anymore, have
that program
> > > > > > > > synthesize the speech and pass it back to kernel land sound
drivers that
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > presume you loaded. This is going to make the performance of
the system
> > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > cyphoning honey uphill. Even assuming the speakup mods were
made by
> > > > > > > somebody
> > > > > > > > in the forseeable future, there are many more moving parts
to make work.
> > > > > > > > What if one of the tasks such as viavoice dies or sound
drivers unload,
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > do we tell the kernel to tell user space to tell the kernel
to tell user
> > > > > > > space
> > > > > > > > that something ahs gone wrong?
> > > > > > > > Emacspeak is a user application. It calls a speech server
> > > > > > > > to interact with its talking device and assumes that sound
and viavoice
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > in top shape. When the speech server crashes emacspeak
respawns it.
> > > > > > > > What you are asking is for speakup to become re-enterant,
the ability to
> > > > > > > put it
> > > > > > > > to sleep and wake it up at will and the ability to talk to
it from user
> > > > > > > space
> > > > > > > > despite the fact it is kernel code and have that kernel code
talk back to
> > > > > > > > user space. This requires a complete redesign of speakup
> > > > > > > > and although it may be possible, so is Bill Gates giving
away all his
> > > > > > > > money and becoming a hermit.
> > > > > > > > Even if Kirk changed his mind regarding viavoice tomorrow
and coded flat
> > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > until the project was complete it would require months of
coding time
> > > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > the whole system was usable if indeed it could be done.
> > > > > > > > Remember Windows screen readers run in user land and
although they hook
> > > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > the windows subsystems they are applications like any other.
Speakup is in
> > > > > > > > the kernel itself and is part of the operating system.
> > > > > > > > Ever had jfw or windoweyes crash and lost your speech? Often
you are left
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > no clue as to why it happend and often jfw is unrestartable.
If we were to
> > > > > > > > have this happen in Linux it may result in bits of the
kernel becoming
> > > > > > > > unusable and could lead to an entire system crash.
> > > > > > > > My personal recommendation is to learn how to use emacspeak,
preferably
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > a seasoned emacs user and learn about term mode and shell
mode.
> > > > > > > > W3 is a nice browser, vm works well and so does emacspeak.
Once you have
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > down pat, you can then use the c-mode in emacs to start
writing the code
> > > > > > > > for speakup and take some of the weight off the existing
coders <smile>
> > > > > > > > If it takes you a week to get emacspeak working for you, it
will tide you
> > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > until tuxtalk is ready for prime time.
> > > > > > > > There are other userland screen readers and one supports
software speech
> > > > > > > can't
> > > > > > > > remember what it is called. Use that until the massive
> > > > > > > > modifications are in speakup itself around 2010.
> > > > > > > > If we get more coders things might go faster, but until
then; you might
> > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > to use another solution for accessability if you have no
serial ports.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regards, Kerry.
> > > > > > > > On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 06:13:40PM -0500, Gregory Nowak
wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ok, here is my penny's worth on software speech for
speakup. I certinly
> > > > > > > don't mean to flame or unconstructively critisize here, so
please read on if
> > > > > > > you're interested. There are some of us that don't have serial
ports on a
> > > > > > > PC, but do have a sound card supported in Linux (based on some
earlier posts
> > > > > > > I've seen on this list, I know I'm not alone in this
situation). As a
> > > > > > > result, I would personally like to entirely blow away the
other OS on such a
> > > > > > > machine, and dedicate it to Linux (simply because I'm getting
tired of using
> > > > > > > the other OS on it, and because all its hardware is Linux
compatible). I
> > > > > > > know that Kirk mentioned that he was working on a software
synth that would
> > > > > > > work with speakup in the far future, and that he wouldn't
write anything for
> > > > > > > IBM viavoice, because it wasn't an opensource product.
However, as I stated
> > > > > > > earlier, there are thoes of us that would like to be able to
use software
> > > > > > > speech with speakup in the very soon future (now). Yes, I know
that I could
> > > > > > > use emacspeak which supports viavoice. However, I've recently
downloaded it
> > > > > > > and played with it for two days (even read  the howto). Given
a choice of
> > > > > > > access though, I would much rather stick with speakup. Thus,
not writing a
> > > > > > > driver for a product that is not opensource (and so far for me
works without
> > > > > > > a hitch) is a serious limitation to access. Speakup certinly
doesn't have to
> > > > > > > be distributted with viavoice (emacspeak isn't), but it would
be nice to
> > > > > > > have the option of using it. It shouldn't be that hard to
modify a dectalk
> > > > > > > or doubletalk PC driver to work with the speech engine. I've
taken c++ my
> > > > > > > junior and senior years of high scghool (AP computer science).
Even so, I
> > > > > > > have somewhat of an understanding on how the sample programs
work that come
> > > > > > > with the engine. I also plan to read the API docs, and
hopefully learn more.
> > > > > > > As you can see, I'm not a candidate to write the speakup
driver for
> > > > > > > viavoice, so I'm not volenteering. I certinly wouldn't mind
switching to the
> > > > > > > opensource engine when it became usable. However ... ok, I've
wined enough.
> > > > > > > Kirk, I guess I'm sim
> > > > > > > > ng your mind regarding viavoice as a speech engine for
speakup for now at
> > > > > > > least. If there is anyone else here that agrees with me,
please write so
> > > > > > > that we could see how many more takers there are, and maybe
try to persaude
> > > > > > > Kirk some more to change his mind. Thanks for reading.
> > > > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net
> > > > > > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au
> > > > > > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net
> > > > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au
> > > > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > --
> > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net
> > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au
> > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina at afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
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