software speech for speakup

Wed May 16 14:20:34 EDT 2001

Thanks Janina, there is finally someone else here that knows exactly what I'm talking about. 
Greg

On Wed, May 16, 2001 at 12:33:01PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> I'll tell you why software speech is a big deal to me. I spend a lot of
> time on the road. Because I work for a non-profit agency, I'm not
> usually in First Class when I'm on the airplane. I'm frequently locked
> into a hotel conference room with anywhere from 20 to 200 other people.
> Sometimes I have a table to spread my computer out on. Often, I just
> have my lap. For me, software speech means that I can use linux and
> speakup with just a headphone--nothing else. Today, it's just a lot more
> complicated because there's that additional device, and that cable that
> attaches that additional device to the computer. So, today, when I don't
> have table space, I run emacspeak with ViaVoice--but I'd sure like to
> have the speakup option, too.
> 
> PS: When I'm on the road, I don't usually care if speech starts at the
> very beginning of the boot process. Mostly, I don't even boot, but
> rather use the suspend/resume feature of my laptop which, by the way,
> works pretty well with ViaVoice.
> 
> On Wed, 16 May 2001, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> 
> > ok now for my 20c worth.
> > What the hell is the deal with having software speech or not? In a way I
> > would prefer it when there is simply no other means of speech output but,
> > it has it's limitations.
> > 1: aAs far as I'm aware, software synthesys ties up a great deal of system
> > resources including the sound card unless of course you run a sb-live.
> > 2: Remember that if you do go down the path of software synthesys, you
> > won't have  speech right from the get go when you first turn your machine
> > on.
> > That's all I wanna say at this point. I don't know much else about but
> > thought I'd add my thoughts on the matter.
> >
> >
> > Shaun..
> > "Has anyone ever tasted an "END"? Are they really bitter?"
> > EMAIL: shauno at goanna.net.au ICQ: 76958435
> > YAHOO ID: blindman01_2000 IRC NICK/SERVER: |3|1ndm4n on #aussiefriends on
> > www.jong.com:6667
> >
> > On Tue, 15 May 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > Guess I'll stick with the other OS on that machine perhaps until 2010 if need be (grin)
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 04:22:59PM +1000, Kerry Hoath wrote:
> > > > Not at this stage. Serial ports are necessary for us to get speech
> > > > and none of the install systems I know of come up with parallel consoles or
> > > > software speech. SUSE does do braille I hear though
> > > > On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 11:04:04AM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > > Thanks for the interesting info on the blazer. So, it looks like a eyes-free install of Linux is not possible on a machine with no serial ports, right?
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 11:53:11PM +1000, Kerry Hoath wrote:
> > > > > > Unless it is a 2.4.x kernel it can't do console on the line printer.
> > > > > > Even if it does; it won't make the blaser talk; there are no flush codes.
> > > > > > You need to put the blaser on a serial port and even then I don't know of anything
> > > > > > other than emacspeak that supports the bns unless cvs speakup does. The blaser
> > > > > > has old implementations of the bns speech code, but I believe it supports
> > > > > > indexing. Doing an install of Linux with the blaser would also be rather bad
> > > > > > since you have no way to shut up the speech, I've done installs like that and
> > > > > > it gets old real quick especially when the kernel dumps 3k of messages out a
> > > > > > port.
> > > > > > If you can't shut it up somehow you don't want it for installs. One disk error
> > > > > > will win you half an hour of speech you can't cancel, but do give it a try :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regarding shutting up speakup insert enter doesn't release the numpad and the
> > > > > > review keys remain active. I was talking of a method to completely release
> > > > > > certain consoles including the number pad.
> > > > > > On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 11:29:36PM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > > > > I thought we already had the ability to put speakup to sleep and to wake it
> > > > > > > up with ins+numpad-enter. Also, not to get off topic ... I know there are
> > > > > > > some of you out there that either have used or are still using emacspeak.
> > > > > > > Any recommendations on where to start after the howto if I decide to take
> > > > > > > that route until speakup gets software speech? Also, I was thinking of how
> > > > > > > to install Linux on such a system without sited help. I've got a braille
> > > > > > > blazer here. I thought of setting up speech through the blazer's parallel
> > > > > > > port, and using the line printer console. However, when I include
> > > > > > > "console=lp0" on the loadlin command line, the kernel oopses, and I don't
> > > > > > > know of how to activate the console on /dev/lp0 after logon. Any
> > > > > > > suggestions? Thanks.
> > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > > P.S. The kernel *doesn't* oops if I leave that option out.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Kerry Hoath" <kerry at gotss.eu.org>
> > > > > > > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 10:57 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: software speech for speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ok so that was all 1 big long line! I won't be slicing that message
> > > > > > > > down into smaller sections in ed os it remains attached below.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The fundermental problem with software speech and speakup is this:
> > > > > > > > speakup gets control extremely early on in the boot process, just after
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > console driver or at the same time. At this point; no sound is
> > > > > > > initialized,
> > > > > > > > no hard disks are known, ho usb is active, no file systems
> > > > > > > > are mounted and therefore sound and viavoice can't yet be loaded.
> > > > > > > > Via voice is a huge application, and putting it into the kernel isn't an
> > > > > > > > option since it would make the kernel image too large and anything in
> > > > > > > kernel
> > > > > > > > image is unswappable and consumes memory.
> > > > > > > > Not to mention we don't have the viavoice source so we
> > > > > > > > can't even integrate it if we wanted to.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It may be possible to do something like keep speakup asleep until viavoice
> > > > > > > > is running, and make some shim between speakup and viavoice but this
> > > > > > > > is not trivial. What you are trying to do is take information
> > > > > > > > from kernel space (console driver) handle it with speakup, hand it to
> > > > > > > userspace
> > > > > > > > to a program that mightn't even be running anymore, have that program
> > > > > > > > synthesize the speech and pass it back to kernel land sound drivers that
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > presume you loaded. This is going to make the performance of the system
> > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > cyphoning honey uphill. Even assuming the speakup mods were made by
> > > > > > > somebody
> > > > > > > > in the forseeable future, there are many more moving parts to make work.
> > > > > > > > What if one of the tasks such as viavoice dies or sound drivers unload,
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > do we tell the kernel to tell user space to tell the kernel to tell user
> > > > > > > space
> > > > > > > > that something ahs gone wrong?
> > > > > > > > Emacspeak is a user application. It calls a speech server
> > > > > > > > to interact with its talking device and assumes that sound and viavoice
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > in top shape. When the speech server crashes emacspeak respawns it.
> > > > > > > > What you are asking is for speakup to become re-enterant, the ability to
> > > > > > > put it
> > > > > > > > to sleep and wake it up at will and the ability to talk to it from user
> > > > > > > space
> > > > > > > > despite the fact it is kernel code and have that kernel code talk back to
> > > > > > > > user space. This requires a complete redesign of speakup
> > > > > > > > and although it may be possible, so is Bill Gates giving away all his
> > > > > > > > money and becoming a hermit.
> > > > > > > > Even if Kirk changed his mind regarding viavoice tomorrow and coded flat
> > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > until the project was complete it would require months of coding time
> > > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > the whole system was usable if indeed it could be done.
> > > > > > > > Remember Windows screen readers run in user land and although they hook
> > > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > the windows subsystems they are applications like any other. Speakup is in
> > > > > > > > the kernel itself and is part of the operating system.
> > > > > > > > Ever had jfw or windoweyes crash and lost your speech? Often you are left
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > no clue as to why it happend and often jfw is unrestartable. If we were to
> > > > > > > > have this happen in Linux it may result in bits of the kernel becoming
> > > > > > > > unusable and could lead to an entire system crash.
> > > > > > > > My personal recommendation is to learn how to use emacspeak, preferably
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > a seasoned emacs user and learn about term mode and shell mode.
> > > > > > > > W3 is a nice browser, vm works well and so does emacspeak. Once you have
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > down pat, you can then use the c-mode in emacs to start writing the code
> > > > > > > > for speakup and take some of the weight off the existing coders <smile>
> > > > > > > > If it takes you a week to get emacspeak working for you, it will tide you
> > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > until tuxtalk is ready for prime time.
> > > > > > > > There are other userland screen readers and one supports software speech
> > > > > > > can't
> > > > > > > > remember what it is called. Use that until the massive
> > > > > > > > modifications are in speakup itself around 2010.
> > > > > > > > If we get more coders things might go faster, but until then; you might
> > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > to use another solution for accessability if you have no serial ports.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regards, Kerry.
> > > > > > > > On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 06:13:40PM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ok, here is my penny's worth on software speech for speakup. I certinly
> > > > > > > don't mean to flame or unconstructively critisize here, so please read on if
> > > > > > > you're interested. There are some of us that don't have serial ports on a
> > > > > > > PC, but do have a sound card supported in Linux (based on some earlier posts
> > > > > > > I've seen on this list, I know I'm not alone in this situation). As a
> > > > > > > result, I would personally like to entirely blow away the other OS on such a
> > > > > > > machine, and dedicate it to Linux (simply because I'm getting tired of using
> > > > > > > the other OS on it, and because all its hardware is Linux compatible). I
> > > > > > > know that Kirk mentioned that he was working on a software synth that would
> > > > > > > work with speakup in the far future, and that he wouldn't write anything for
> > > > > > > IBM viavoice, because it wasn't an opensource product. However, as I stated
> > > > > > > earlier, there are thoes of us that would like to be able to use software
> > > > > > > speech with speakup in the very soon future (now). Yes, I know that I could
> > > > > > > use emacspeak which supports viavoice. However, I've recently downloaded it
> > > > > > > and played with it for two days (even read  the howto). Given a choice of
> > > > > > > access though, I would much rather stick with speakup. Thus, not writing a
> > > > > > > driver for a product that is not opensource (and so far for me works without
> > > > > > > a hitch) is a serious limitation to access. Speakup certinly doesn't have to
> > > > > > > be distributted with viavoice (emacspeak isn't), but it would be nice to
> > > > > > > have the option of using it. It shouldn't be that hard to modify a dectalk
> > > > > > > or doubletalk PC driver to work with the speech engine. I've taken c++ my
> > > > > > > junior and senior years of high scghool (AP computer science). Even so, I
> > > > > > > have somewhat of an understanding on how the sample programs work that come
> > > > > > > with the engine. I also plan to read the API docs, and hopefully learn more.
> > > > > > > As you can see, I'm not a candidate to write the speakup driver for
> > > > > > > viavoice, so I'm not volenteering. I certinly wouldn't mind switching to the
> > > > > > > opensource engine when it became usable. However ... ok, I've wined enough.
> > > > > > > Kirk, I guess I'm sim
> > > > > > > > ng your mind regarding viavoice as a speech engine for speakup for now at
> > > > > > > least. If there is anyone else here that agrees with me, please write so
> > > > > > > that we could see how many more takers there are, and maybe try to persaude
> > > > > > > Kirk some more to change his mind. Thanks for reading.
> > > > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net
> > > > > > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au
> > > > > > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net
> > > > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au
> > > > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > --
> > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net
> > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au
> > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> -- 
> 
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina at afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
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