Speakup history lesson, was Re: speakup todo?

Mon Sep 17 20:07:18 EDT 2012

Hi Kirk,
I think that they would get used more now, because more people have become 
interested in Linux.
Glenn

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kirk Reiser" <kirk at braille.uwo.ca>
To: "Glenn" <glennervin at gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for 
Linux." <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 7:51 AM
Subject: Speakup history lesson, was Re: speakup todo?

Maybe I will give a small history lesson about speakup.  I never
thought I'd be doing something like this!

Speakup's keymap was originally based on ASAP as a few folks have
noticed.  I did it that way because I used ASAP in DOS for many years
and Larry and I were originally going to write speakup together.  He
fell asleep and got a really, really good job as head of research and
development for APH.  I OTH, got frustrated and started reading
through Linux kernel code shortly after Linus released it.  I spent a
few years trying to find funding to do the development of speakup but
gave up after group after group wern't interested because everyone was
into Windows.  I decided to finally write speakup myself, for myself.
A few other folks said they'd be interested in playing with it and so
it goes.

As for a JFW keymap, I wrote one for speakup about a year after I
released the first few versions because some people made the same type
of comments as you have Glen.  It gained a few users but mostly was
just ignored.  When we rewrote how key handling was done, I never
bothered with the JAWs keymap because it just was never really used.

A few people have also pointed out that NVDAs keymap is similar to
speakup's.  This is true Jamie and Nick were both involved in speakup
and bookserve in earlier years.  They have made NVDA a really usable
alternative to the proprietary Windows screen readers and they have
kept to their tradition with our joint projects of open source and
freely available.  I'm very happy for their commitment.

So there you go, speakup had JFW keymaps and nobody used them.  Of
course if someone wants to write new ones, we'll happily include them.
This is open source afterall.

   Kirk

On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, Glenn wrote:

> I have tried to get folks to switch to Linux, but it is difficult,
> as people like what is familiar to them.
> The situation on the other list, the Orca list I think, was that I am on
> digest on that list, and I did not reply to the thread subject, I'm not 
> sure
> how to do that from digest mode, which on that instance, was regarding key
> bindings in Orca, but I wrote a new thread with a similar subject line, 
> and
> some folks thought it had nothing to do with that subject on that list.
> But yes, I am trying to get the Linux community to wake up to this need.
> In fact, in Windows, the program Window Eyes finally smartened up and used
> JFW key bindings.
> It may be easy for someone who knows how to make new key bindings, but not
> for a new user.
> If it is really fairly easy to make a new set of key bindings, then why
> doesn't someone just do it, and make it an option for new users, like 
> Window
> Eyes did?
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason Miller" <hobbgoblin79 at gmail.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin at gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
> Linux." <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:13 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> Hello.
>
> Let me start by this first. You've been on several lists, bitching and
> complaining about everyone switching to JFW keybindings. The first time
> I saw it, you went to the wrong list to complain about something not
> sharing bindings with JFW that wasn't even the right list. I said it
> there, adn I'll say it here again. If not having JFW bindings was going
> to be a killer for the blind, then things like Orca, Speakup, Emacs,
> Voice Over, along with *coughs* Window Eyes, and NVDA on Windows
> wouldn't exist. To put your argument to a rest, if what you said were
> true, then why are so many people switching away from jaws, just
> speaking alone of windows, and going to NVDA or Window Eyes, let alone
> those that are migrating to other *nix based systems? I don't know what
> kind of personal crusade you are on, but from what I've seen, this is
> nothing more than you trying to troll.
>
> Secondly, like I said, he's been on several lists complaining about no
> one in the linux world using the JFW based keybindings. This
> conversation could go on forever, but it would be just feeding a troll.
> If everyone here has noticed, he's hijacked Tyler's thread, just to stir
> up trouble. He seems to do that elsewhere on other Linux accessibility
> lists, and when someone points out a valid argument, he seems to get
> frustrated, and go away.
>
> *shrugs* if you've really taught computers to the blind, then you would
> understand that they are willing to learn what works. Not everyone needs
> the windows world, and not everyone wants to stay in that ecosystem. You
> don't go to every list, start complaining about how things should be
> like windows, and JAWS, otherwise like I've told you before, only JAWS
> would exist, and there would be no other accessibility programs out
> there. Basically it comes down to this, and this is why I am not too
> sure about what you say about teaching those with vision impairments how
> to use technology. You teach someone who doesn't know different
> techniques, teach them different systems that would fit their needs, and
> you let them decide. You don't force a single way onto them, and go
> everywhere else that isn't of that way to stir up trouble.
>
> Anyway, end of my rant towards this guy.
>
> On 09/16/2012 05:51 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> Actually, it is this attitude among the sighted, that keeps most
>> technology
>> from being made accessible to the Blind.
>> Wow.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alonzo Cuellar"<mariachiac at gmail.com>
>> To: "Glenn"<glennervin at gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
>> Linux."<speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
>> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
>> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
>> readers work.
>> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it 
>> full
>> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
>> expand your horizons.
>> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not
>> and
>> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to 
>> explore,
>> etc.
>> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer.
>> That
>> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances 
>> weather
>> is be linux or mac.
>> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other
>> operating
>> systems.
>> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard
>> commands
>> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn
>> how
>> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may
>> have
>> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
>> apply this to any situation.
>> If we were to stop learning? Then we would never excel and stay trapped 
>> in
>> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
>> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
>> thats where it might be a problem.
>>
>> Alonzo
>>
>>
>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn<glennervin at cableone.net>  wrote:
>>
>>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>>> time
>>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>>> you
>>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>>> Only the techie types do that.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler at tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Glenn"<glennervin at gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system 
>>> for
>>> Linux."<speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>>> JFW
>>>> key mappings.
>>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect 
>>>> key
>>>> mappings.
>>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>>> screenreader users.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler at tysdomain.com>
>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>> <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello all:
>>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. 
>>>> How
>>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>>> to the console we need?
>>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>>> up a line etc.
>>>>
>>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>>> game to start coding.
>>>>
>>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>> that
>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> -- 
> Jason Miller
> Vinux PR Coordinator
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--
Kirk Reiser The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: kirk at braille.uwo.ca University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061
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