speakup todo?

Sun Sep 16 19:07:19 EDT 2012

You already have sort of a virtual cursor thingy, with the Screen program. 
It's called copy mode. I'm not sure what else you can do that's like it.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler at tysdomain.com>
To: "Glenn" <glennervin at gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for 
Linux." <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: speakup todo?

I'm going to throw this out there, then I'm done as far as this
highjacking of the thread is concerned.

You keep asking for JFW keybindings for Speakup because well, because
less techy people want to use Linux apparently, and besides the fact
that it'd break how Speakup works, it'd also break everything else like
navigation in the terminal, editors etc. The thing that I really want to
get across, since you clearly don't use speakup much is that the cli is
a realm where you type in commands and get feedback, sometimes run
ncurses based apps, but I really don't remember the last time I ran
something interactive with the exception of emacs. This means that while
you might save those poor souls from learning complicated keybindings
like caps+u,o,j,l etc they still have to learn commands, as well as a
new operating system.

You also make a point about Linux picking up in popularity with the
introduction of a GUI; I will give you that point, but you're arguing
over oranges and apples here. You want a cli reader to be made uh,
easier to use I guess with keybindings that are jaws-like, but you
mention the whole "windows appeal," which last I checked doesn't include
a cli.

You also mention a virtual cursor. I'm sorry, but I don't want to
activate my Speakup Cursor every time I want to review text, and then
activate my PC cursor when I want to do what my arrow keys actually do.
This is a lot of effort, a lot of time wasted and frankly you get
nothing out of it.

 >* I don't like to see folks who cannot afford it to have to buy a new
 >computer because Windows stops supporting the OS, and also having to
buy and
 >expensive screenreader all the time.
It's Microsoft that stops supporting the OS, and you don't need to buy a
new computer. Windows seven runs on pretty bad hardware, and there were
plenty of people that upgraded from XP to seven on their current
hardware. It's also worth noting that Microsoft has had Windows XP out
for more than 7+ years now, and they're just now trying to stop
supporting it. As for paying money for a screen reader, I urge you to go
check out NVDA. Granted you'll have the NVDA list to troll about
JFW-like keybindings, and for that I'm sorry for the NVDA people, but
it's free and if you can wrap your head around some new keyboard
commands, you might just be amazed!
On 9/16/2012 4:48 PM, Glenn wrote:
> And if this attitude prevails, then you will always be in a small club,
> maybe you want it that way though.
> But keep in mind that Linux would have not even become as popular to the
> sighted if it would not have taken on a windows-like appeal.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac at gmail.com>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
> <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:24 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> I agree with Jason and tyler. You have to do whats necessary to learn an 
> OS.
> You either take it by the horns and see what you can accomplish or forget
> it. Linux may not be an all purpose desktop, but for those who are willing
> to use it I'm sure become rewarded later.
> SAme applies for voiceover and the mac. I had no idea how to use it. It 
> was
> just trial and error with me and my brother. Now I can use it just fine.
>
> Alonzo
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2012, at 5:15 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler at tysdomain.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> But you already use it, so why should you care if more users take to
>>> Linux?
>> I really don't either way. People are going to use Linux because they 
>> want
>> to, probably because they want to learn. Linux is not an all-purpose
>> desktop; ever tried doing your banking from the cli? It's not something
>> for the end-user. Sure we have projects like Vinux--where we ship out 
>> huge
>> bloated cds with everything in the ubuntu repo that can fit on it, but
>> even that's not an all-purpose desktop, even though people swear by it.
>>
>> My point though was that by learning Linux (and if you're using speakup
>> you're using the cli), you have to learn what comes with it. Whether
>> that's how to set up and configure your cli apps, or how to use the 
>> screen
>> reader. Whatever reader you go with, even NVDA vs Jaws or Voiceover
>> requires you learn something new, and the shift from Windows to OSX and
>> Jaws/NVDA to Voiceover is quite drastic, and people still manage to learn
>> it without jaws keybindings.
>> On 9/16/2012 3:48 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>> That is true in a perfect world, but it is not like that, and the 
>>> reality
>>> is
>>> as I stated, that very few Blind users will migrate to Linux without
>>> something familiar to use.
>>> But you already use it, so why should you care if more users take to
>>> Linux?
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin at gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system
>>> for
>>> Linux." <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
>>> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
>>> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
>>> readers work.
>>> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it
>>> full
>>> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
>>> expand your horizons.
>>> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not
>>> and
>>> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to
>>> explore,
>>> etc.
>>> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer.
>>> That
>>> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances
>>> weather
>>> is be linux or mac.
>>> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other
>>> operating
>>> systems.
>>> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard
>>> commands
>>> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn
>>> how
>>> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may
>>> have
>>> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You 
>>> can
>>> apply this to any situation.
>>> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped
>>> in
>>> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
>>> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn 
>>> and
>>> thats where it might be a problem.
>>>
>>> Alonzo
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin at cableone.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>>>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>>>> time
>>>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>>>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>>>> you
>>>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>>>> Only the techie types do that.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler at tysdomain.com>
>>>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin at gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system
>>>> for
>>>> Linux." <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>>>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>>>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>>>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch 
>>>>> to
>>>>> JFW
>>>>> key mappings.
>>>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect
>>>>> key
>>>>> mappings.
>>>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular 
>>>>> to
>>>>> screenreader users.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler at tysdomain.com>
>>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>>> <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello all:
>>>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can 
>>>>> note.
>>>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I 
>>>>> figured
>>>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly.
>>>>> How
>>>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>>>> to the console we need?
>>>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>>>> up a line etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there 
>>>>> a
>>>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>>>> game to start coding.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Ty
>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>>> that
>>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> -- 
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>> that dares not reason is a slave.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that 
dares not reason is a slave.

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