Main advantages of SBL over Speakup

[John G. Heim]

But I'm not hostile.  I haven't said one hostile thing to you. All I've done 
is point out flaws and inconsistancies in your messages.   It seems to me 
that you're the one trying to force his opinions on others, not me.

I am not trying to criticize your personal choices as far as your work 
environment. But you surely must see that its not typical. For you to claim 
that speakup is going to become less relevant based on your very unusual 
needs is truely unfair.  You have this unique situation where you want to be 
bleeding edge (in your own words) while at the same time not.  You insist 
that you have to have this bleeding edge computer for 3D yet you also insist 
that you have to run your workstation in character mode all the time. 
Surely you must see that that's not typical. Most people in your position 
would use orca on their workstation and speakup on their servers.  Or maybe 
they'd use a Windows workstation and still run speakup on their servers.

I don't see how you can fail to see how inconsistent your arguments are.

Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: Main advantages of SBL over Speakup


> There is a wonderful reason to have hardware speech on your desktop.  My
> Dec Talk I have on my desktop at work works way better with speakup than
> my software synth with speakup that I use at home.  I like sitting at the
> commandline all day and so the commandline is my desktop unless I am
> forced to use X Windows from time to time to help a user with a problem.
> It is true that I remote into my servers but my desktop is almost always
> at tty1 because I like it that way.  I get more work done that way.  You
> are just trying to pick a fight with people it seems John.  I really don't
> know what your problem is, but you are making yourself sound ignorant by
> just coming at people like that with your opinions and trying to belittle
> them.  This list is not supposed to be hostile.  So, chill out!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Pia
>
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010, John G. Heim wrote:
>
>> Well, you didn't originally say *most* motherboards don't have serial 
>> ports
>> or that *if* a PC has no serial port there is no advantage to having 
>> speakup
>> in the kernel. But I guess the symantics of the debate aren't really 
>> relevant
>> anyway. We should get back to arguing the point.
>>
>> Maybe its accurate to say that *most* modern motherboards don't have 
>> serial
>> ports. I question even that. But you didn't address my questions about 
>> how
>> you determined your priorities. We both agree that most servers have 
>> serial
>> ports. That seems unlikely to change any time soon. So I don't understand 
>> why
>> its so important to you to have hardware speech on your desktop. I 
>> understand
>> it for servers. In fact, that was part of my original point --  having
>> speakup in the kernel is very important if you need to find out what a 
>> server
>> won't boot or why it can't get a network connection. But on your desktop, 
>> why
>> don't you just use software speech? In fact, why don't you just get one 
>> PC
>> for yourself with a serial port and use software speech on all the other
>> desktops that you do support on. That's what I do even though all of our 
>> PCs
>> have serial ports.
>>
>> Also, I have a problem with your prediction that speakup will become less
>> relevant if it doesn't support USB hardware. I suppose its true as far as 
>> it
>> goes but its like saying if pigs had wings they could fly. Maybe. But 
>> pigs
>> don't have wings.  Speakup probably would and probably will support USB
>> synths if and when it becomes possible.  But right now, its not possible. 
>> You
>> will never be able to switch to orca or sbl or any other screen reader 
>> for
>> boot time speech. If those screen readers tried to find a way to speak as
>> early in the boot process as speakup does, they'd run into exactly the 
>> same
>> problems  that speakup has.
>>
>> Oorca and sbl are probably never even going to try to speak as early in 
>> the
>> boot process as speakup does. Honestly, if you think about it, who uses
>> hardware speech synths these days anyway? If you want to talk about 
>> modern
>> solutions, hardware speech synths are definately yesterday's ttechnology.
>> People want a GUI and they want software speech. The vast majority of 
>> people
>> still interested in the CUI are systems administrators. I really doubt 
>> that
>> not supporting USB synths is a serious threat to speakup's popularity 
>> with
>> system admins if for no other reason than that if you want speech during
>> boot, you have no choice but to use speakup.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor Astrope" <astrope at tabbweb.com>
>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
>> <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 9:31 AM
>> Subject: Re: Main advantages of SBL over Speakup
>>
>>
>> John, what I said is there is no advantage to having speakup in the 
>> kernel
>> if it cannot support serial synths on modern computers and I stand by my
>> statement that most modern computers do not come with serial ports. I 
>> know
>> there is a Dell business machine that does, but these are the exception,
>> not the rule and are also much more expensive.
>>
>> Basically, my point is speakup needs to support external serial ports
>> and/or usb serial ports going forward or it loses any advantage it has of
>> being in the kernel. If software speech is the only option for the
>> majority of computers, than there is really no point of speakup being in
>> the kernel.
>>
>> Feel free to disagree, but I think my statements are accurate and you 
>> will
>> find that over time you will find fewer and fewer machines with built-in
>> serial ports, as usb was intended to replace rs232 serial ports and this
>> is happening today, although I do agree it isn't totally complete.
>>
>> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010, John G. Heim wrote:
>>
>>> I just think you are over stating your case. I'm sure the speakup
>>> developers
>>> would love to support USB.   But your original  comment was that speakup
>>> doesn't support modern  motherboards -- which is just totally untrue. 
>>> You
>>> also said that having speakup in the kernel has "no advantage". Also
>>> untrue.
>>> I don't have a problem with your offereing the suggestion that speakup 
>>> be
>>> modified to support USB hardware synths. I just think you shouldn't
>>> exaggerate the problems. After all, look at the subject line of this
>>> thread,
>>> "Main advantages of SBL over Speakup."  If we're going to compare sbl 
>>> and
>>> speakup, lets be fair about it.
>>>
>>> You made it sound like speakup is already obsolete. And that's just not
>>> true.
>>> Really, it seems to me to be a fairly small niche you are in. We both 
>>> agree
>>> that most servers have serial ports, right? So your problem is that you
>>> have
>>> a desktop with no serial port but you have to have speech right away 
>>> during
>>> boot? Why can't you just use software speech on your desktop? In fact, 
>>> I'm
>>> unclear as to why it is so important to you that the workstations you
>>> support
>>> have hardware synth speech. As I said, all of the PCs in my department 
>>> have
>>> serial ports (literally 100s of machines) but when I have to do support, 
>>> I
>>> just use software speech. I'm not going to drag my hardware speech synth
>>> around with me unless I have to. Its so much easier just to grap a USB
>>> headset and fire up software speech.
>>>
>>> Actually, some years ago, I posted a message to this list about how you
>>> could
>>> modify your udev rules to recognize when your USB headset is plugged 
>>> into a
>>> machine and have it start software speech.  Each USB device has a unique
>>> serial number and you can write a udev rule to run a script to start 
>>> speech
>>> when a device with a specific serial number is plugged in. So its 
>>> possible
>>> to
>>> sit down at a PC at the login prompt, plug in your USB headset, and 
>>> login
>>> with speech.
>>>
>>> ---- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor Astrope" <astrope at tabbweb.com>
>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
>>> <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:09 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Main advantages of SBL over Speakup
>>>
>>>
>>> John, yes I do manage servers and I do agree that having speakup in the
>>> kernel is immensely important if you have a serial port and synth.
>>>
>>> Perhaps it is different where you are, but where I live, desktops with
>>> serial ports are extremely rare. The only ones I managed to find were 
>>> some
>>> low end Acers. I also found some business machines with serial ports, 
>>> but
>>> they are twice the cost for about half the performance as a consumer
>>> desktop machine and we don't buy them where I work.
>>>
>>> Like Kelly mentioned earlier today, I also do not install speakup in the
>>> kernels of the servers I manage, but in the machine I use to manage the
>>> servers.
>>>
>>> So, I respectfully disagree with you about the availability of serial
>>> ports in modern desktop machines and I stand by my statement that 
>>> speakup
>>> as a kernel-level speech system will become less relevant over time 
>>> unless
>>> it can support external serial ports and usb serial ports. In my 
>>> opinion,
>>> this is where speakup development should be focused, as more and more
>>> people will face this issue as they upgrade their machines. But I am not 
>>> a
>>> speakup developer, so I have no influence on the direction it takes. I 
>>> can
>>> only offer my opinion, which I have stated several times on this list 
>>> and
>>> I can only hope that speakup developers agree with it and take up the
>>> challenge.
>>>
>>> In the meantime, I do have a job to do and I will need to decide whether 
>>> I
>>> continue using speakup with software synth, which will make my job more
>>> difficult or use something else like orca or a mac, which still won't
>>> solve the problem of having access to early kernel messages, but may 
>>> give
>>> me more flexability going forward.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 10 Feb 2010, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, perhaps its a minor point but plenty of modern computers have 
>>>> serial
>>>> ports. I've never seen a server that didn't have a serial port. In 
>>>> fact,
>>>> except for laptops, I have yet to see a computer that doesn't have a
>>>> serial
>>>> port. That includes the 200 or so desktop units we have where I work. 
>>>> Even
>>>> the machine I built myself has a serial port.
>>>>
>>>> It certainly is a huge over statement to say that having speakup in the
>>>> kernel  has no advantage. If you manage servers like I do, having 
>>>> speakup
>>>> in
>>>> the kernel is just about the most important thing there is for a screen
>>>> reader. I don't really care that much about what happens after the 
>>>> machine
>>>> is
>>>> booted. About the only time I need a run time screen reader is if
>>>> something
>>>> is wrong with networking. But mostly, I can admin these machines 
>>>> remotely
>>>> after they boot.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor Astrope" 
>>>> <astrope at tabbweb.com>
>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>> <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 3:09 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Main advantages of SBL over Speakup
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Samuel, do you mean there is no kernel convention for accessing serial
>>>> ports or there is no speakup support for accessing serial ports 
>>>> according
>>>> to kernel conventions?
>>>>
>>>> It would be really great if speakup could use ttyS# devices, so speakup
>>>> would work with modern motherboards that do not have built-in serial
>>>> ports. The way I see it is speakup can only use software speech on 
>>>> modern
>>>> computers, so unless it can access external serial ports or usb serial
>>>> ports, there really is no advantage to speakup being in the kernel so 
>>>> far
>>>> as I can tell...
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 9 Feb 2010, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bill Cox, le Tue 09 Feb 2010 14:23:25 -0500, a écrit :
>>>>>> I hear that it doesn't follow kernel
>>>>>> programming conventions, for example in how it interfaces to the COM
>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, because no such thing exists (yet).
>>>>>
>>>>> Samuel
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>>> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
>>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
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>>
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