Part 2 of my corrispondence with chriss. was RE: I swear to tell the truth, (fwd)

Sun May 5 18:58:33 EDT 2002

They use an ms server? no wonder it's slow slow.  I used to use a web host
with two servers on the same line, a linux for php/mysql hosting, and a ms
for asp/access.  The ms server was about 100% slower and crashed more than
the linux one.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Oliver" <shauno at goanna.net.au>
To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 1:58 AM
Subject: Part 2 of my corrispondence with chriss. was RE: I swear to tell
the truth, (fwd)


> here's the second installment of my email conversation with chriss. from
> freedon scientific.
>
>
> --
> Shaun
>
> If little else, the brain is an educational toy.
>                 -- Tom Robbins
> EMAIL: shauno at goanna.net.au
> ICQ: 76958435
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 22:41:17 -0400
> From: Chris Hofstader <chrish at freedomscientific.com>
> To: Shaun Oliver <shauno at goanna.net.au>
> Subject: RE: I swear to tell the truth, (fwd)
>
> Hi,
>
> I have found all of the criticism sent from the SpeakUp list to be very
> constructive and I didn't
> feel attacked at all.  I've often taken controversial positions and have
> faced criticism from all sides.
>
> Freedom Scientific is using a MS based server for our ftp, Internet and
> other network based needs.  I can't really make a claim as to whether
Linux,
> MS or any of them are superior as I've little experience with IT.  I've
been
> a system level hacker for many years but never wandered into the
networking
> arena.  As it is distant from my area of expertise I cannot really comment
> on why Freedom picked the MS solution over any of the others.
>
> An X-Windows screen reader would be an interesting challenge.  I've
explored
> this as an opportunity and found there were a handful of nearly
> insurmountable hurdles:
>
> The first notion was to make all UI objects self voicing.  This had three
> problems.  The first is that not all widgets are used in a similar enough
> fashion to create a generic speech and Braille solution.  Second, self
> voicing objects have the problem of delivering useful contextual
> information - so I might be able to tell you that an OK button is in focus
> but what are you agreeing to if you activate it?  Finally, most comercial
> X-Windows applications staticly link with the UI elements thus making my
> self voicing ones inactive.
>
> The next approach was to look at the variety of X desktops.  Again, we ran
> into the problem of contextual information and staticly linked comercial
> projects.  Peter Korn's team at Sun seems to be doing a pretty good job
with
> making gnome talk which may turn into a truly usable solution.
>
> Finally, very few sysadmin types will install any special server software
> for accessibility purposes.  Yes, there is ADA and 508 but the anti-virus,
> anti-hacker, security frenzied culture in the IT community today will not
> budge to install software for a tiny percentage of their staff.
>
> As for the jobs issue: surely many blind folks are heading into software
and
> IT jobs.  Sadly, this is a small minority of the 2 million (NFB's number)
> blind people in the US.  The overwhelming majority of our new constomers
are
> getting their first job ever.  Many of these people have been steered away
> >from the technical professions by well meaning special education people
who
> just don't understand technology very well.
>
> Others, people like me, are those who go blind in their mid-thirties.  I
was
> fortunate, I had 20 years experience developing software and Ted Henter
> offered me a job.  Most, though, had far more pedestrian careers
(plumbers,
> truck drivers, secretaries, etc.) and have little or no experience using
> computers and a huge level of fear of a computer.  These people want to
get
> back to work but haven't the foggiest idea of where to start looking.
These
> people will never become IT professionals but I've seen too many great
turn
> around stories to believe that they won't learn to use a computer
> competently enough to get a good job in a wide variety of fields.
>
> Personally, I find that Sun will probably post the greatest challenge to
MS'
> lead in the accessibility world.  Marney Beard, Peter Korn and the rest of
> their gang are very smart and talented people.  With a very small budget,
> they have made tremendous progress with Java and gnome.  The Java solution
> is interesting as well, Sun provides the source to the Accessibility
Bridge
> and I know it has been ported to Macintosh and assume someone has done the
> job for Linux as well.  A creative, multi-platform, Java screen reader
might
> be a strong entry into government agencies and academic institutions.
>
> Thanks,
> cdh
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shaun Oliver [mailto:shauno at goanna.net.au]
> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:07 PM
> To: chrish at freedomscientific.com
> Subject: RE: I swear to tell the truth, (fwd)
>
>
> Hight Chriss,
> Let me point out a few things in the body of your own message.
> Please read below.
>
>
> --
> Shaun
>
> If little else, the brain is an educational toy.
>                 -- Tom Robbins
> EMAIL: shauno at goanna.net.au
> ICQ: 76958435
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 10:06:15 -0400
> From: Chris Hofstader <ChrisH at Freedomscientific.com>
> To: 'Ryan Mann' <rmann at rmisp.net>
> Subject: RE: I swear to tell the truth, (fwd)
>
> Hello,
>
> Thanks for forwarding the thread on to me.  I'm always happy to hear from
> the open source, blinux community.
> Here's the first mistake.
> Although thereis a blinux community and we are a part of it, This is
> comming from the speakup community.
>
> If you read my written testimony, I state clearly that there are a number
of
> good accessibility aids available for the Linux OS.  I add that the Linux
AT
> software is written by a group of hard working volunteers.  I do wish that
> some of the open source vendors would start investing in accessibility the
> way that Microsoft, IBM and Sun already do.  With a reasonable level of
> funding the volunteers could become professionals and not concern
themselves
> with doing the really cool work happening already and paying the bills
too.
> Your second mistake. Please don't confuse open source with free software.
> and I did read your testimony in it's entirety and saw only the mention
> that accessability aids for GNU/Linux do exist with the efforts put in by
> hard working volunteers.
>
> If you also look at my resume (put in as Exhibit 1), you will see that,
> along with Richard Stallman, I was the co-founder and president of League
> for Programming Freedom.  I have been a vocal advocate for Project GNU and
> have worked on the defense of a number of companies being sued for patent
> infringement and user interface copyright issues.
> I commend that. However, if one wants to truely say that they stand out
> >from the rest, why not "boldly go where no one has gone before" and code
a
> suitable screen reader for the xwindows system and make a killing?
> Mr. Stallman never was against making a few dollars for your software, he
> just has some very different ideas as to how the world of software should
> work.
> When it comes to accessibility, however, I believe the single most
important
> aspect is getting jobs for people with disabilities.  With estimates for
> unemployment among blind people running as high as 75% and with virtually
> all potential employers requiring skills in MS Windows then it is
essential
> that adaptive technologies work in the environment that the consumers
want.
> In the commercial environment, Microsoft is the overwhelmingly dominant
> source of Operating systems and, for a long time, Microsoft has invested
> time and resources into accessibility and is the corporate leader in this
> area.
> I'd have to agree with this point also, but, it's not the only option out
> there.
> Sure we need microsoft to be able to function in the office environment
> but, what about those of us that want to aspire to be admins of isps or
> for that matter, maintain an existing one?
> would you honestly use a microsoft product as an ftp or www or for that
> matter dns server?
> I wouldn't due to the fact that any microsoft product isn't relyable
> enough for extended uptimes and the fact that alot of what microsoft does
> during installs that screw with system settings require a reboot which is
> unacceptable in that sort of situation.
> Permitting incomplete or altered versions of the Microsoft operating
systems
> to be sold will reek havoc on a system level product like JAWS and all of
> its competitors.  I, therefore, stand behind my testimony entirely.
> This point if by no one else is taken by me and I see what you're driving
> at.
> no matter what operating system one uses, one should not have to use a
> broken system and wonder why the accessability software that is used on
> that operating system doesn't work.
> Having said that, I feel that some knowledge of computers either hardware
> or software is necissary for blind or low vission users to get by.
> This is probably why alot of us turn towards i.t.
> By the way, there's alot to be said for editing a config file and
> restarting the process.
> But, again, having said all this, I'm not going to cut my nose off despite
> my face,
> I still need windows for some tasks and as a registered user of jaws, that
> is my prefered screen reader under windows.
> I hope these comments will be accepted as constructive critisism and not
> seen as an attack on freedon scientific and it's product.
>
>  Respectfully,
> Cdh
>
> Chris Hofstader
> VP, Software Engineering
> Freedom Scientific, Inc.
> 11800 31st Court N.
> St. Petersburg, FL 33716
> PH: (727)803-8000 ext. 1061; (800)444-4443
> Fax:(727) 803-8001
> email:  ChrisH at freedomscientific.com
> Check out our website!  www.freedomscientific.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ryan Mann [mailto:rmann at rmisp.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 8:56 PM
> To: chrish at freedomscientific.com
> Subject: Re: I swear to tell the truth, (fwd)
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 20:44:19 -0400
> From: Scott Howell <showell at lrxms.net>
> Reply-To: speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> To: speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> Subject: Re: I swear to tell the truth,
>
> What amazes the hell out of me is that if the sighted folk of the world
only
> gave some though to the matter, they'd probably agree that editing a file
is
> considerably faster then any gui. Not to mention keyboard access can out
run
> a mouse clicking any day...that's a proven fact. <grin> Oh how I love
these
> discussions. Did I mention that do to windows the adverage employee is
> producing less? Afterall all that crashing and rebooting reduces output
> don't you think??
>
>
> On Wed, May 01, 2002 at 07:48:43PM -0400, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > Hi Cecil and all. An example. I was using War Ftpd on my Winblows
> > laptop. It uses Unix style permissions for file access. Only problem is
> that the gui makes it extremely difficult to set file permissions, and
very
> hard to tell to what exactly you are setting those permissions to. In
Linux,
> all you have to do is edit a config file, and that's it! A process that
> should take 1 or 2 minutes, took me about three hours because of the f-ing
> gui!
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Cecil H. Whitley <cwhitley at ec.rr.com>
> > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 6:57 PM
> > Subject: Re: I swear to tell the truth,
> >
> >
> > > Okay, okay just one more and I might shut up.....
> > > Blind people need a GUI.  Isn't that the real msg?  Why doesn't he
> > > give them the real story?  Text mode os's are accessable to a degree
> > > that a GUI will never be by their very nature.
> > >
> > > Cecil, stater of the obvious.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
>
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