list noise (was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster)

Gregory Nowak gnowak1 at uic.edu
Wed Mar 13 17:25:03 EST 2002 

Ok, I just had to reply. As far as I know, (and I humbley stand to be corrected by Kirk R.), this is a list for speakup, gnu/linux, and anything else relivent threads lead to (just like the reflector according to the info about it on the speakup site).
I'll get on it one of these days when I have more time to find out for myself if the site is correct (smile).
Greg


On Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 02:02:15PM -0600, Chris Peterson wrote:
> Is this a list about linux or a list about speakup?  If its a list about
> Linux, I don't need it.  I was spacifically interested in learning about
> speakup, and the other projects associated with it.  I thought this was the
> place to go for that.
> 
> I thought this, because there are a number of other lists where this
> discussion might be appropriate.  I've pasted in some info about them incase
> you weren't aware of them.
> The BLINUX Mailing Lists
> blinux-announce
> Topic: announcements dealing with blind support under Linux (new software,
> conferences etc.).
> Moderated list, no noise.
> Low number of posts.
> If you want to stay in contact with BLINUX.
> blinux-develop
> Topic: software development enabling the Linux user who is blind.
> 
> This might be a place to go for a linux developer to write an unpack util
> for bookshare.
> 
> Unmoderated list, currently really low traffic...
> 
> blinux-list
> Topic: themes which contain the words Linux. and blind. For details please
> read the
> 
> This might be a good place for this discussion.
> 
> blinux-FAQ.
> Off topic: general Linux questions.
> Unmoderated list, high traffic - high noise.
> Postings to blinux-announce will be posted here.
> 
> This might also be a good place for this discussion.
> 
> I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but there are a lot of us who
> receive hundreds, if not thousands, of e-mails every day and we need to be
> able to go through them quickly.  Thats why there isn't just a general
> mailing list that the entire world is on.  It would be kaos.  This is
> becoming kaos and I'm sure its not something Kirk has time to deal with and
> nobody is saying anything about it except me.
> 
> Also, addressing the issue of starting a project with everybody in mind, let
> me tell you right now that it isn't possible.  For one thing, to please
> everybody would mean that you'd never get off-the-ground.  What about those
> people who are using some other Unix-like OS such as FreeBSD?  What about
> those using dos?  Or a Braille N Speak?  Or an apple II?  Or a Makintosh?
> Or a Comodor 64?  Or an Amiga?  Or an Atari?  How about a Vax? (I do that at
> school once in a while)...  The list goes on for ever and ever.  Just
> because you're vocal about Linux doesn't mean that it should be a priority.
> The fact is, though, that it appears to be a priority.  So, why are you
> wining about it?  They're not trying to retrofit as you're referring to it.
> And, I get the distinct impression that you have very little knowledge of
> software development or web design.
> 
> Btw, I've gone and read your web page and what I see there seems to varify
> this.  This isn't a big deal and it doesn't mean that you don't have
> valuable input.  However, it does mean that there are things about the
> process that you don't fully understand.  I'm trying to help to explain some
> of them to you so you might be able to restructure your input to be of help
> to those in charge of the project.
> 
> This isn't the same as adding a wheelchair ramp to a building that wasn't
> designed to have one.  Personally, I know how that can fail badly.  Writing
> software to support another OS isn't the same thing at all.  It could be,
> though, if someone without the right experience tried to do it.  You might
> get something like Word Perfect for Linux was.  That would be bad...  I
> think that is probably why they're trying to be careful about getting it
> done right.
> 
> Regarding the web site.  Your assuming that the web site was inaccessible
> because it had a message about IE 5.5 was the wrong approach.  It would've
> been more helpful to ignore that message and determine if the site was
> really accessible, or not.  Then you could go to the webmaster and explain
> why that message was wrong, or what you found to be broken so that he/she
> could fix the problem.  I see, though, that you didn't even try before you
> complained.  Why should someone give you any credibility if you don't have
> any evidence to support your case?
> 
> I see that you're a teacher.  What is needed, here, is for you to teach
> those involved how to make things better.  Just complaining with no
> direction is not helpful to them.  It would be like a student constantly
> saying "I don't get it", without explaining what they don't understand.  You
> have to go through it over and over again, trying to figure out how to
> explain it in a way that your student will understand.  This is frustrating
> for you and for the student.  In the sam way, this discussion is frustrating
> to me, and to the rest of the list that hasn't participated in it.
> 
> So far, I've counted four participants in this thread.  Since I know there
> are more than four people on the list, I suggest that the discussion might
> not be appropriate here.  Still, I am not a moderator and have no authority
> to make you move.  Its just a suggestion.
> 
> Now, let me explain some things about myself that may give me some
> particular credibility, or not...  I am a college student.  I've spent a
> great deal of time teaching myself how to learn.  For me, this means
> learning to ask questions in a way that clearly explains how to teach a
> siteed professor how to teach me.
> 
> >From that statement, you may deduce that I am blind.  You would be right.  I
> can't see a darn thing, but this isn't a big deal.
> 
> I have also acted as a teacher.  Every summer I work with a program which
> teaches students with visual impairments to use technology.  This usually
> involves Windows, but has involved Braille N Speaks, and other such devices.
> I hope, from what I learn here, to be able to teach my students that Linux
> can be an alternative.
> 
> I'm a computer science major.  This means that I spend most of my life
> programming.  Again, most of this is in Windows, but I'm slowly learning
> about programming in Linux so I have the ability to work to make Linux as
> usable as Windows for all our every-day tasks.  Its a slow process, because
> Linux is different from anything I've delt with before.
> 
> I'm rambling.  If you've gotten this far in my message, you're probably sick
> of me.  Well, I don't blame you.  I've spent a great deal of time on this
> all because I want to see that this discussion, if it must take up space in
> my inbox and I must exercise my delete finger on it, goes in a constructive
> direction.  I think that is what we all want, so lets try to make that
> happen.  Also, lets try to minimize the noise that others have to hear when
> reading this list.  It makes me want to sumarily delete messages from this
> list, or unsubscribe, which I don't believe is any more constructive than
> the noise that clogs this list.
> 
> Chris Peterson
> _______________
> The Space Report
> Internet and satellite delivered news from space.
> Visit our web site at www.TheSpaceReport.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ann Parsons" <akp at eznet.net>
> To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:52 PM
> Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
> page from Napster
> 
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I did that very thing, Mr. Petersen, and I believe that we may be
> > getting somewhere.  If my complaints are too loud for you, I'm sorry.
> > You see, I happen to believe strongly that no matter what one does to
> > aid persons with disabilities, the primary directive should be
> > Universal Access.  This means that when you start a project, you build
> > it so that it is accessible to all from the get-go, not a project that
> > needs to be retro-fitted.  Retro-fitting has been the way of
> > making materials, buildings, transportation and everything else
> > accessible.  It's time it stopped, frankly, stopped now!  We have to
> > think in terms of *all* users, not just the fortunate few, all users,
> > that includes every single person who might want to access whatever
> > the heck it is.
> >
> > If I am disappointed in something, I say so.  I believe that Bookshare
> > is making an effort to remedy the problem, and having the discussion
> > on here is right because it involves access to something via Linux.
> > <smile>  What better place to find programmers for Linux than on a
> > Linux list?  What better place to find programmers for making
> > something accessible than on a list devoted to accessibility of the
> > Linux system to persons who are blind?
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> > P.S.,  It may interest you to know that I thought Janina was writing
> > to me privately last night.  That's how come I was so frank in my
> > post.  <smile>  Seems my mail blooper started a whopping discussion,
> > though.  So, I have continued it.
> >
> > A.P.
> >
> > --
> > Ann K. Parsons
> > email:  akp at eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> JRRT
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
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> Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

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