software speech for speakup

Thu May 17 05:58:36 EDT 2001

janina. 
You make a valid point. In the case of people using laptops, software
synthesys would be an excellent idea.
I'm just not convinced that' it's a good idea myself. I know I seemed a
bit ters but it appears from where I sit that a good deal of debate has
taken place with regards to software speech..
But I'll conceed that in the case where there's no space to spread speech
synthesiser, laptop and what all else, it has it's benifits.

Shaun..
"Has anyone ever tasted an "END"? Are they really bitter?"
EMAIL: shauno at goanna.net.au ICQ: 76958435
YAHOO ID: blindman01_2000 IRC NICK/SERVER: |3|1ndm4n on #aussiefriends on
www.jong.com:6667

On Wed, 16 May 2001, Janina Sajka wrote:

> I'll tell you why software speech is a big deal to me. I spend a lot of
> time on the road. Because I work for a non-profit agency, I'm not
> usually in First Class when I'm on the airplane. I'm frequently locked
> into a hotel conference room with anywhere from 20 to 200 other people.
> Sometimes I have a table to spread my computer out on. Often, I just
> have my lap. For me, software speech means that I can use linux and
> speakup with just a headphone--nothing else. Today, it's just a lot more
> complicated because there's that additional device, and that cable that
> attaches that additional device to the computer. So, today, when I don't
> have table space, I run emacspeak with ViaVoice--but I'd sure like to
> have the speakup option, too.
> 
> PS: When I'm on the road, I don't usually care if speech starts at the
> very beginning of the boot process. Mostly, I don't even boot, but
> rather use the suspend/resume feature of my laptop which, by the way,
> works pretty well with ViaVoice.
> 
> On Wed, 16 May 2001, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> 
> > ok now for my 20c worth.
> > What the hell is the deal with having software speech or not? In a way I
> > would prefer it when there is simply no other means of speech output but,
> > it has it's limitations.
> > 1: aAs far as I'm aware, software synthesys ties up a great deal of system
> > resources including the sound card unless of course you run a sb-live.
> > 2: Remember that if you do go down the path of software synthesys, you
> > won't have  speech right from the get go when you first turn your machine
> > on.
> > That's all I wanna say at this point. I don't know much else about but
> > thought I'd add my thoughts on the matter.
> >
> >
> > Shaun..
> > "Has anyone ever tasted an "END"? Are they really bitter?"
> > EMAIL: shauno at goanna.net.au ICQ: 76958435
> > YAHOO ID: blindman01_2000 IRC NICK/SERVER: |3|1ndm4n on #aussiefriends on
> > www.jong.com:6667
> >
> > On Tue, 15 May 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > Guess I'll stick with the other OS on that machine perhaps until 2010 if need be (grin)
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 04:22:59PM +1000, Kerry Hoath wrote:
> > > > Not at this stage. Serial ports are necessary for us to get speech
> > > > and none of the install systems I know of come up with parallel consoles or
> > > > software speech. SUSE does do braille I hear though
> > > > On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 11:04:04AM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > > Thanks for the interesting info on the blazer. So, it looks like a eyes-free install of Linux is not possible on a machine with no serial ports, right?
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 11:53:11PM +1000, Kerry Hoath wrote:
> > > > > > Unless it is a 2.4.x kernel it can't do console on the line printer.
> > > > > > Even if it does; it won't make the blaser talk; there are no flush codes.
> > > > > > You need to put the blaser on a serial port and even then I don't know of anything
> > > > > > other than emacspeak that supports the bns unless cvs speakup does. The blaser
> > > > > > has old implementations of the bns speech code, but I believe it supports
> > > > > > indexing. Doing an install of Linux with the blaser would also be rather bad
> > > > > > since you have no way to shut up the speech, I've done installs like that and
> > > > > > it gets old real quick especially when the kernel dumps 3k of messages out a
> > > > > > port.
> > > > > > If you can't shut it up somehow you don't want it for installs. One disk error
> > > > > > will win you half an hour of speech you can't cancel, but do give it a try :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regarding shutting up speakup insert enter doesn't release the numpad and the
> > > > > > review keys remain active. I was talking of a method to completely release
> > > > > > certain consoles including the number pad.
> > > > > > On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 11:29:36PM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > > > > I thought we already had the ability to put speakup to sleep and to wake it
> > > > > > > up with ins+numpad-enter. Also, not to get off topic ... I know there are
> > > > > > > some of you out there that either have used or are still using emacspeak.
> > > > > > > Any recommendations on where to start after the howto if I decide to take
> > > > > > > that route until speakup gets software speech? Also, I was thinking of how
> > > > > > > to install Linux on such a system without sited help. I've got a braille
> > > > > > > blazer here. I thought of setting up speech through the blazer's parallel
> > > > > > > port, and using the line printer console. However, when I include
> > > > > > > "console=lp0" on the loadlin command line, the kernel oopses, and I don't
> > > > > > > know of how to activate the console on /dev/lp0 after logon. Any
> > > > > > > suggestions? Thanks.
> > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > > P.S. The kernel *doesn't* oops if I leave that option out.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Kerry Hoath" <kerry at gotss.eu.org>
> > > > > > > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 10:57 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: software speech for speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ok so that was all 1 big long line! I won't be slicing that message
> > > > > > > > down into smaller sections in ed os it remains attached below.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The fundermental problem with software speech and speakup is this:
> > > > > > > > speakup gets control extremely early on in the boot process, just after
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > console driver or at the same time. At this point; no sound is
> > > > > > > initialized,
> > > > > > > > no hard disks are known, ho usb is active, no file systems
> > > > > > > > are mounted and therefore sound and viavoice can't yet be loaded.
> > > > > > > > Via voice is a huge application, and putting it into the kernel isn't an
> > > > > > > > option since it would make the kernel image too large and anything in
> > > > > > > kernel
> > > > > > > > image is unswappable and consumes memory.
> > > > > > > > Not to mention we don't have the viavoice source so we
> > > > > > > > can't even integrate it if we wanted to.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It may be possible to do something like keep speakup asleep until viavoice
> > > > > > > > is running, and make some shim between speakup and viavoice but this
> > > > > > > > is not trivial. What you are trying to do is take information
> > > > > > > > from kernel space (console driver) handle it with speakup, hand it to
> > > > > > > userspace
> > > > > > > > to a program that mightn't even be running anymore, have that program
> > > > > > > > synthesize the speech and pass it back to kernel land sound drivers that
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > presume you loaded. This is going to make the performance of the system
> > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > cyphoning honey uphill. Even assuming the speakup mods were made by
> > > > > > > somebody
> > > > > > > > in the forseeable future, there are many more moving parts to make work.
> > > > > > > > What if one of the tasks such as viavoice dies or sound drivers unload,
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > do we tell the kernel to tell user space to tell the kernel to tell user
> > > > > > > space
> > > > > > > > that something ahs gone wrong?
> > > > > > > > Emacspeak is a user application. It calls a speech server
> > > > > > > > to interact with its talking device and assumes that sound and viavoice
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > in top shape. When the speech server crashes emacspeak respawns it.
> > > > > > > > What you are asking is for speakup to become re-enterant, the ability to
> > > > > > > put it
> > > > > > > > to sleep and wake it up at will and the ability to talk to it from user
> > > > > > > space
> > > > > > > > despite the fact it is kernel code and have that kernel code talk back to
> > > > > > > > user space. This requires a complete redesign of speakup
> > > > > > > > and although it may be possible, so is Bill Gates giving away all his
> > > > > > > > money and becoming a hermit.
> > > > > > > > Even if Kirk changed his mind regarding viavoice tomorrow and coded flat
> > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > until the project was complete it would require months of coding time
> > > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > the whole system was usable if indeed it could be done.
> > > > > > > > Remember Windows screen readers run in user land and although they hook
> > > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > the windows subsystems they are applications like any other. Speakup is in
> > > > > > > > the kernel itself and is part of the operating system.
> > > > > > > > Ever had jfw or windoweyes crash and lost your speech? Often you are left
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > no clue as to why it happend and often jfw is unrestartable. If we were to
> > > > > > > > have this happen in Linux it may result in bits of the kernel becoming
> > > > > > > > unusable and could lead to an entire system crash.
> > > > > > > > My personal recommendation is to learn how to use emacspeak, preferably
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > a seasoned emacs user and learn about term mode and shell mode.
> > > > > > > > W3 is a nice browser, vm works well and so does emacspeak. Once you have
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > down pat, you can then use the c-mode in emacs to start writing the code
> > > > > > > > for speakup and take some of the weight off the existing coders <smile>
> > > > > > > > If it takes you a week to get emacspeak working for you, it will tide you
> > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > until tuxtalk is ready for prime time.
> > > > > > > > There are other userland screen readers and one supports software speech
> > > > > > > can't
> > > > > > > > remember what it is called. Use that until the massive
> > > > > > > > modifications are in speakup itself around 2010.
> > > > > > > > If we get more coders things might go faster, but until then; you might
> > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > to use another solution for accessability if you have no serial ports.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regards, Kerry.
> > > > > > > > On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 06:13:40PM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ok, here is my penny's worth on software speech for speakup. I certinly
> > > > > > > don't mean to flame or unconstructively critisize here, so please read on if
> > > > > > > you're interested. There are some of us that don't have serial ports on a
> > > > > > > PC, but do have a sound card supported in Linux (based on some earlier posts
> > > > > > > I've seen on this list, I know I'm not alone in this situation). As a
> > > > > > > result, I would personally like to entirely blow away the other OS on such a
> > > > > > > machine, and dedicate it to Linux (simply because I'm getting tired of using
> > > > > > > the other OS on it, and because all its hardware is Linux compatible). I
> > > > > > > know that Kirk mentioned that he was working on a software synth that would
> > > > > > > work with speakup in the far future, and that he wouldn't write anything for
> > > > > > > IBM viavoice, because it wasn't an opensource product. However, as I stated
> > > > > > > earlier, there are thoes of us that would like to be able to use software
> > > > > > > speech with speakup in the very soon future (now). Yes, I know that I could
> > > > > > > use emacspeak which supports viavoice. However, I've recently downloaded it
> > > > > > > and played with it for two days (even read  the howto). Given a choice of
> > > > > > > access though, I would much rather stick with speakup. Thus, not writing a
> > > > > > > driver for a product that is not opensource (and so far for me works without
> > > > > > > a hitch) is a serious limitation to access. Speakup certinly doesn't have to
> > > > > > > be distributted with viavoice (emacspeak isn't), but it would be nice to
> > > > > > > have the option of using it. It shouldn't be that hard to modify a dectalk
> > > > > > > or doubletalk PC driver to work with the speech engine. I've taken c++ my
> > > > > > > junior and senior years of high scghool (AP computer science). Even so, I
> > > > > > > have somewhat of an understanding on how the sample programs work that come
> > > > > > > with the engine. I also plan to read the API docs, and hopefully learn more.
> > > > > > > As you can see, I'm not a candidate to write the speakup driver for
> > > > > > > viavoice, so I'm not volenteering. I certinly wouldn't mind switching to the
> > > > > > > opensource engine when it became usable. However ... ok, I've wined enough.
> > > > > > > Kirk, I guess I'm sim
> > > > > > > > ng your mind regarding viavoice as a speech engine for speakup for now at
> > > > > > > least. If there is anyone else here that agrees with me, please write so
> > > > > > > that we could see how many more takers there are, and maybe try to persaude
> > > > > > > Kirk some more to change his mind. Thanks for reading.
> > > > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net
> > > > > > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au
> > > > > > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net
> > > > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au
> > > > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > --
> > > > Kerry Hoath: kerry at gotss.net
> > > > alternatives: kerry at gotss.eu.org or kerry at gotss.spice.net.au
> > > > ICQ UIN: 8226547
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> -- 
> 
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina at afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
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